on both sides of the pond- the extreme left is scuppering their own cause

so- if you go 'off' where will you go???

trisher, I did give some good reasons why Keir Starmer is a 'star' act- and yes, in PMQ. If PMQ is not important in defeating those dreadful, incompetent, arrogant bar stewarts in charge now - then, as said in OP- I despair.

And despair even more that many in the LP would rather scupper the country and allow the Tories (and probably not with Johnson, but the ERG with Cummings in charge even more) to destroy the country, our NHS and schools, and so much more.

Again- is it really what the 'left' of the LP want? (and yes, I agree totally that Corbyn was maligned and derided in a totally un-acceptable way by a right wing manipulated Press- no question). Corbyn can never come back, for so many reasons- so who, to your mind, should replace KS?

growstuff I will when someone addresses my concerns and shows me what Starmer really stands for. But if it is a repeat of Blairism I'm afraid I'm off- once bitten twice shy.

Could people stop resurrecting old arguments about Corbyn and try posting someting about Starmer instead (Good try varian but 5/10 because it is a little bit dodgy.)

trisher

I do wonder why now some people are questioning Starmer those who spewed vitriol all over Corbyn expect everyone to conform. Did we at any point insist everyone must conform? No we tried to address the concerns and deal with them. Whatever Starmer's background he will be remembered in Labour heartlands as a Remainer, part of the Westminster elite, a barrister like Tony Blair, someone who can't be trusted. Until he actually starts to speak up publicly that is how he will continue to appear. Not that I think it matters he won't make it to the next election anyway.

Be that as it may, but you need to face up the fact that Labour didn't face up to concerns very well. In fact, it turned people away.

Time for new management and for you to do what you wanted others to do.

POGS

Grandad

Dipping a toe. No doubt we will still be jousting partners but hopefully maintaining our mutual respect for holding differing opinions.

Good to debate. Thank you.

Well said POGS, I shall once more look forward to our jousting. In the meantime I am off for my Sunday roast lunch.

That now superseeds all debate as I am starving. ??

POGSif you want to debate matters with me please don't use half a quote of what I said. Either post the whole thing or ignore it as I shall ignore your spurious comments until you can quote properly.

Interesting link varian you do wonder where that speech was made. Was he at the demonstration? Undoubtedly-standing in the background whilst John McDonnell addresses the press and details the movement. He is there of course holding the banner and keeping quiet. www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1kf2_LMs-M&feature=youtu.be

Grandad

Dipping a toe. No doubt we will still be jousting partners but hopefully maintaining our mutual respect for holding differing opinions.

Good to debate. Thank you.

Everyday folk will see in Kier Starmer a calm thoughtful clever articulate, sensible nice man, compassionate and middle of the road. Ordinary people will warm to him as a safe steady pair of hands, no one wants extremism. I can't see him courting any section of society by appearing at events just to be trendy or silly stunts to prove his proletariat
credentials. Politicians ignore and dismiss ordinary folk at their peril! It is their opinion and vision of the parties, rightly or wrongly that will choose the next government The lovely lady in our village post office thought J.C was a communist, rightly or wrongly, therefore she would never have voted for him or the party. I don't think she was alone in that view!

Its amazing how many of them voted for that barrister Tony Blair.

trisher

POGS No one has ever said (apart from people trying to use it as a weapon against Corbyn) "There is no anti-semitism in the LP"
----

There most certainly are Labour Party supporters/activists both on Gransnet and in general who have said ' There is no Antisemitism in the LP'!! History cannot be written and it would be a nonsense to say Antisemitism is definately not in any party it is simply not a truth. It is the scale of Antisemitism within the Labour Party under Corbyn that has been the problem.

When you declare your position by saying ' (apart from people trying to use it as a weapon against Corbyn)' why would somebody saying 'There is no anti-semitism in the LP' be using that as a weapon ' against ' Corbyn? It is the opposite surely. It is a fact those who are dedicated Corbyn/activists clearly believe Antisemitism within the party WAS/IS a weapon to target Corbyn and that is because they refused then and now this was a problem under the Corbyn Leadership.

I know because I and many others have tried to debate with the issue since 2015.
---
You say:-

' As for the paying off. I have yet to see any explanation of how that has contributed to stopping anti-semitism in the LP.Indeed I think it may have aggraveted the issue.'

You are making the point anti-semitism is indeed a problem in the Labour Party and there was an issue that requires the' stopping' of it. The payments are to correct false allegations which if pursued in legal settlements would possibly have cost Labour more money and it is a show of intent that Labour under Starmer has no tolerance of Antisemitism within it's ranks and party any longer.

Did Corbyn not claim to be a Remainer?

Most Labour Party voters supported remaining in the EU.

And has he not spent his entire career in Westminster?, like all the other members of that "elite"?

At least Starmer did good work defending human rights, including the rights of workers.

Corbyn has defended the IRA and Palestinian terrorists, which did nothing to help the poor misguided Sun readers in these Northern constituencies.

I do wonder why now some people are questioning Starmer those who spewed vitriol all over Corbyn expect everyone to conform. Did we at any point insist everyone must conform? No we tried to address the concerns and deal with them. Whatever Starmer's background he will be remembered in Labour heartlands as a Remainer, part of the Westminster elite, a barrister like Tony Blair, someone who can't be trusted. Until he actually starts to speak up publicly that is how he will continue to appear. Not that I think it matters he won't make it to the next election anyway.

Twenty years after his success in the "McLibel" case which went the the European Court of Human Rights, Starmer was still standing up for McDonald's workers.

twitter.com/keir_starmer/status/1195036169773338625

Varians description of the difference between Starmer and corbyns background is spot on. Not that I care less about peoples background. I am interested in someone who will achieve electoral power to improve things for the working class that people profess to care so much about.

growstuff there is much in the Labour party in the eyes of very many members and affiliate members that has to be "sorted out" before the party and movement can move forward.

Wishful thinking post on this forum will not change that circumstance in any way. What the right carried out within the Labour Party has to be brought to the surface and structures put in place to ensure such can never happen again.

I see you're still trying to be a bully Grandad.

PS. Just a little fact for you ... did you realise that over 10% of TUC members belong to one of the teaching unions? And that even more belong to Unison and work in schools?

Personally, I don't buy things in shops, where the sales assistants are rude, so it might be an idea to brush up on your sales technique?

Stealing a quote from Rishi Sunak: “this is not a time for ideology and orthodoxy”.

This country needs hard-headed and efficient pragmatism, not a load of hot air.

There are too many people who are suffering from having right-wing governments, who really couldn't care less about them.

Cummings knew from his focus groups how to gain "red wall" votes. Whether the government can deliver on those promises remains to be seen. The Labour Party should spend less time blaming circumstances outside its control and tearing each other apart and spend more time listening to the people whose lives they could change.

There was and still is anti-semitism in the Labour Party just as there is Islamaphobia in the Tory Party. However, Starmer would do well to acknowledge that the actions of some at Labour Central Office did much to prevent many cases of anti-semitism being dealt with effectively in both the General Secretaries Office and the Labour Leaders Office.

In making a self-determined settlement with those involved in the "Panorama" claims, Starmer may well have made it much easier for further claims to succeed in regard to the forthcoming Race and Equailty Commission report and the Leaked internal report.

Starmer will have turn to the trade unions to fund the huge amounts that are predicted will be required if the Parliamentary Labour Party is to avoid insolvency in the near future.

And where does the left have its most powerful base in the Labour Movement, within those trade unions.

By the way POGS great to see you posting again on GN.
Welcome back.

Starmer comes from a less privileged background than Corbyn and has an impressive record as a human rights lawyer.

He is clearly on the left and served in Corbyn's shadow cabinet, unlike many of the centre-left MPs who rejected Corbyn or were rejected by him.

Surely it is time for the corbynistas to stop trying to undermine him?

The three most successful Labour Leader in terms of becoming prime minister were Clement Atlee, Harold Wilson and when first elected as leader Tony Blair. None of the foregoing had deep roots within the Broader Labour moment when they first came to be leader of the Parliamentary Labour Party, but built those roots in that broader movement where the left holds it's power base.

Kier Starmer since being elected as leader appears to have carried out an ideological war with the left in the movement and such a policy cannot succeed in Labour.

I along with many on the left of the Labour movement supported all Corbyn's shadow cabinet policies which were also widely supported in the country. However, as Len McCluskey so well has stated "no one in the wider Labour movement seems to know where politically the Parliamentary Labour Party is heading at present.

In that, Starmer should not take the one hundred years total support of the PLP by the trade unions and other affiliate organisations for granted.

The above warning Starmer would do well to heed and through that begin to build some real relationship with that huge section of the Labour movement.

POGS No one has ever said (apart from people trying to use it as a weapon against Corbyn) "There is no anti-semitism in the LP" they have said it would be dealt with. Quite what was going on in Central Office is debatable. But really sacking RLB may have been necessary (but that is debatable as well- Boris and letterboxes- apology?) However choosing not to appoint a left winger as a replacement isn't questionable -it is what happened, nothing to do with anti-semitism just right wing bias.
As for the paying off. I have yet to see any explanation of how that has contributed to stopping anti-semitism in the LP.Indeed I think it may have aggraveted the issue. There are those who see Israeli plots and actions against Palestine in any such actions (this isn't an endorsement of such thoughts by the way, just a recognition).
Still awaiting reasons for why Starmer is so good and will appeal to Labour heartlands

varian Gaitskell had though very strong links to the working class having supported the General Strike, raised money for the miners and worked for the WEA. Starmer has no such history- a pity isn't it?

Trisher

" I think Starmer's treatment of Rebecca Long Bailey and his payment to the people suing the LP show a distinct tendency to favour the right. I hope I am wrong but I fear not."
----

This is one of the problems Labour has had since Corbyn became Leader.

There is on side, often new or ' returned ' because of Corbyn Labour Members who were pro Jeremy For Leader/Momentum who never did and never will accept any antisemitism was rife within the Labour Party from the outset of Corbyn/Momentum controlling the nuts and bolts of the Labour Party.

Starmer making decisive decisions to pay those falsely accused by Corbyn and his team and removing Rebecca Long Bailey is not seen through the prism of correcting a wrong doing, doing the right thing but they prefer to say there was /is no antisemitism in Labour and accuse Starmer of being right wing/ a Tory puppet.

There are other Labour Members who accept there was an obvious problem with antisemitism within their party and are trying their damnedest to show the Labour Party has changed under Starmer by acknowledging this was an issue and are trying to reverse the damage done during Corbyns tenure as Leader. The Labour Party by the way paid less money than if they were taken to court and sued for damages probably and Starmer would be well aware of that fact too.

This subject has been running since 2015, even on Gransnet, and here we are in 2020 and the division still remains in Labour and no doubt will run well into the future because the 2 sides are so at odds with one another.