on both sides of the pond- the extreme left is scuppering their own cause

Dinamo

Sorry but I don't understand how your response answers the statement.

' Some people think that by voting Conservative they somehow become one of the better off by association'.

Every political party will tell you you /the voter will be better off if you vote for them.

How does anybody become better off by ' association'?

As it was, left-wing twitter exploded with anti-Starmer tweets on Sunday... for writing the piece for the MoS.

Like the one trisher has just posted...

Oddly enough, I really don't recall Corbyn being particularly high profile during the May years... apart from when the MSM were whipping up a bit of hatred for him...

And he missed wide open goals.

(I actually do think that the MSM had a lot to do with anti-Corbyn feeling, trisher, I don't see how people can deny it...)

How does anybody become better off by ' association'?

Try researching 'Stockholm Syndrome', POGS

Maizied

I am fully aware of 'Stockholm Syndrome' I do not require to ' look it up'.

It still does not answer the question.

However I guess now ' Stockholm Syndrome' can be added to the list of names/definitions for individuals who do not vote for Labour.

Yes and she has. Perhaps you missed it?
No, I didn't miss her

My point was that Gavin Williamson was speaking for the Government so I presumed it was right for Kate Green to speak on behalf of the Opposition.

POGS

Dinamo

Sorry but I don't understand how your response answers the statement.

' Some people think that by voting Conservative they somehow become one of the better off by association'.

Every political party will tell you you /the voter will be better off if you vote for them.

How does anybody become better off by ' association'?

I gave you the example of my mother and I'll explain more slowly, so hopefully you understand POGS.

My mother was never well off. Her own mother (my grandmother) was abandoned by my grandfather, so my mother and her brother were brought up by a single, divorced mother, which was quite unusual in the 1930s.

Nevertheless, they were educated and artistic ... and proud. They were snobs. They they thought they were better than working class people and those who claimed any kind of benefits. My own parents were divorced when my sisters were still quite young.

They associated voting Labour with being working class and, horror of horrors, with claiming benefits. My mother would have been eligible for some Pension Credit, but she always refused to claim.

In her mind, the only people who voted Labour were feckless scroungers and she thought she was better than that. If she had ever voted Labour, she would have had to admit to herself that she was really no better than other people.

She had friends who thought the same way and I sometimes see the same attitude in posts on GN. It's deeply entrenched into some kind of unconscious psyche. I'm not a psychologist, so I can't explain it any better.

My mother had no understanding of macro-economics, so saw everything through her own experience and bigotry. She didn't understand (or chose not to understand) that she voted against her best interests.

My sisters are lifelong Labour voters and my mother was always horrified, so we always did our best to change the subject. It was as though they had somehow betrayed their "class" and upbringing (to my mother at least).

Are you going to stop being so abrupt now POGS?

If you still don't understand, I'm afraid I don't know how to make it any simpler.

Maybe I should add that it wasn't until I left home at 18 and lived in London for the next ten years that I ever thought of myself as anything other than coming form a Conservative voting family. I guess it was like being brought up with a religion and being labelled with it for the rest of your life ... or supporting Everton when the rest of your family supported Liverpool.

growstuff

Thank you for your politeness.

We will have to beg to differ as one of us is talking on a personal basis ( your mother) the other on a broad spectrum of voters from a politic grouping.

Tory voters are not all alike . Some, albeit fictional characters, are good examples. I don't think Alf Garnet, Margot Leadbeater, Delboy Trotter, The Dowager Countess of Granton or Hyacinth Bucket would ever have dreamt of voting Labour. Each would have looked down on Labour voters, just like growstuff's mother did.

However I guess now ' Stockholm Syndrome' can be added to the list of names/definitions for individuals who do not vote for Labour.

You can guess as much as you b well like, POGS. I'm sure it fits nicely into your own carefully curated set of misconceptions.

As soon as I saw you were back I made a resolution never to be daft enough again to respond to you. I shall now stick to it.

POGS

growstuff

Thank you for your politeness.

We will have to beg to differ as one of us is talking on a personal basis ( your mother) the other on a broad spectrum of voters from a politic grouping.

As I wrote, I have seen the same kind of ideas on GN. My mother wasn't alone in thinking like that. I have no idea how many people vote for the same reasons, but it's not an insignificant number. They're as tribal as anybody.

I shall now follow Maizie's resolution.

I was even born in a private nursing home because the NHS maternity hospital in my town had formerly been the workhouse! My mother used to tell people that her daughter wasn't an NHS baby! How daft is that?

Well there you go.

Nothing changes when personal insult is the last bastion of debate/disagreement.

At least I remain polite.

POGS Perhaps this will help I once knew the vicar of a church on the edge of a very deprived area, many of the people who attended had bettered them selves and moved into the adjoining more middle class housing. These people were continually denigrating those attending from the deprived area. They had moved on and they didn't want to see people who hadn't. I think it is partly to do with seperating yourself away from those you grew up with and demonstrating your success and voting Tory helps with that.

I hope the vicar told them all to "love thy neighbour", even the one from the rough area. It is astounding how many church--going folk seem to find that rule difficult.

Similarly, many 2nd, 3rd generation immigrants (and we have a few very powerful famous ones in the headlines currently) - often become very anti new immigration. They have 'moved on' to better times, and found a nice position in society, politically or professionaly- and are constantly denigrating other immigrants. Rings a bell?

This is the second political thread recently where jeremy Corbyn has been mentioned without any input from Anniebach which is very unusual. I’ve realised I’ve seen nothing from her for weeks. Does anyone know if shes ok?

varian
Without meaning to detract from the discussion, your examples of Tory voters made me laugh. Alf Garnet and Margot Leadbeater, I just had to chuckle

I thought the same thing polly but then I saw a couple of posts from her, so think she is okay. More worryingly, Monica is missing.

Anniebach posts on the Good morning thread daily so perhaps she just can’t be arsed anymore, like a few on here!

These threads become tiresome after a while with the same posters repeating their mantras on all sides of the spectrum knowing that t’other side won’t agree in a month of Sundays!

Ok thanks- that’s good.

Maybe us left wingers need a bit more time to get used to the "change of management" remember that we saw a chance to really transform this country into a fairer society for everyone.
It now feels as if that chance has been taken away and the status quo of inequality has to prevail if a party stands any chance of being elected.

It seems unfair to me that when Jeremy Corbyn was the leader, thread after thread was started with the sole aim of being nasty about him and his supporters. His policy suggestions were ridiculed and his character attacked repeatedly and relentlessly.

This has not happened with Keir Starmer as leader, just a bit of mild criticism, but somehow the left are painted as the saboteurs of a possible Labour Govt.

My personal view is that Corbyn did deserve criticism of some of his policies and his handling of the party, especially over anti-semiticism. Nevertheless, much of the criticism of his character and some of the twisting of what he had said and done was appalling.

trisher

' I think it is partly to do with seperating yourself away from those you grew up with and demonstrating your success and voting Tory helps with that.'
-

How? I must be missing something. That is called good old fashioned snobbery and thinking you are better /superior to others. Hell you don' t have to move home to fall into that criteria. Does for arguments sake an actor/footballer /musician who came from a poor background and now has millions in the bank have to vote Tory because they have ' moved away from where they grew up'?

Again the assumption is being made that working class people, those on low income, living in rented accommodation /social housing mabye do not vote Tory. They must vote Labour because that is where they are pigeon holed, deemed to politically be, more to the point are told and assumed that is who they should vote for if not they are some sort of godless working class traitor to the cause.

Does everybody who becomes successful vote Tory?

Is it not even a possibility somebody who has moved forward in life and yes left their council house estate and now own their own property may still vote Labour?
(not that the council estate I lived on was ever an issue for me nor the council house estate my sister currently lives on is to her).

I don' t give a stuff about a persons background but I will accept wholeheartedly snobbery abounds, likewise inverted snobbery abounds.

A person can be better off by association, that is true. There are many reasons for that.

An example is nepotism, e.g Corbyns son being employed by McDonnell or a Tory MP employing his/her wife etc. etc.

If I vote Tory I do not think I will therefor be somehow privileged, better off and doors will open for me, I will be put forward quicker at the doctors, I would get special treatment. Who the hell would know I voted Tory if I didn't have a badge or tattoo?

It's as lazy a thought as thinking if you vote Labour you wear a cloth cap and own a whippet by default. Utter rubbish, whether an individual votes left/right wing pigeon holing them is lazy and utterly misguided when it comes to 'character traits.' which is what I am relating my posts to.

On a general point! Sorry it upsets other opinions but I do not see how engaging in a discussion is served by personal insult, never have and never will.