on both sides of the pond- the extreme left is scuppering their own cause

This has not happened with Keir Starmer as leader, just a bit of mild criticism, but somehow the left are painted as the saboteurs of a possible Labour Govt.

But it's not the 'mild criticism', is it, Ilovecheese? It's the insults starting up again, only this time instead of being the right insulting the left, it's the left insulting the not quite left enough.

I thought Corbyn might be an interesting leader; that the fact that he was so different from the usual party leader might revitalise politics somewhat. I liked both the 2017 and 2019 manifestos and I was devastated at the 2019 result.

But so far we've had no real indication of what Starmer's policies will be (and I thought that policy was decided by Conference, not the party leader) and I'm not sure just what from 2019 will be abandoned and what difference that abandonment would make to achieving a fairer society.

Nothing that Starmer has done has indicated that he doesn't want to achieve a fairer society. The hate seems to me to be based on factionalism more than on his actions.

If the 2019 manifesto failed to persuade people to vote Labour I do not understand why people are refusing to move from it, or reframe it.

Nobody has explained how sticking to the same policies is going to persuade sufficient people to vote for Labour to overturn a 78 seat majority. If they could argue that convincingly it would be a great help.

All political leaders must expect to have criticism thrown at then and their words and statements often unfairly distorted. However, the difference with Jeremy Corbyn was that Criticism came from a very well organised faction within the Labour Party itself.

After winning the largest total vote and majority in the history of Labour leadership elections that faction then took it upon themselves to undermine Corbyn and even work against a Labour Party victory in a general election.

The actions of the above group are below appalling and I genuinely believe that the one hundred year plus support of the parliamentary Labour party (PLP) by the trade unions and other affiliated organisations is now under threat due to what has taken place.

It also has to be stated that the actions of Kier Starmer since becoming leader have increased the above rift between the broader movement and the PLP as it appears to many that Starmer has solely promoted the right faction in the party.

It was that faction that carried out the campaign to undermine Jeremy Corbyn and that is why so many on the left of the party have lost all confidence and faith in Starmer.

POGS it's no good asking me. I gave you an example from my experience. I am, as most know, a dedicated left wing socialist and I grew up in a council house. Perhaps it's a family thing, my children are socialists too. I like to think it's because I brought them up with proper values and a healthy disrespect for authority but who knows?
I have a very good friend who votes Tory and likes (horrors) Nigel Farage. She is otherwise a lovely person. She seems to think Labour can't be trusted. Perhaps it's something to do with respect for the aristocracy as well. If someone went to a good school and talks properly they must be better?

Good post POGS and on the subject of voting ‘bases’ things have changed from years ago haven’t they, when all the working classes voted automatically for Labour.That’s because life has changed and working people are just as aspirational as anyone else.They are just as likely to vote Conservative or Lib Dem, particularly if they have a good local MP.They have to feel that promises in a manifesto both
Appeal to them and are attainable.The last Labour manifesto
Was neither as it turned out, along with the negative feelings about Corbyn himself and his history.
Keir Starmer is plainly different and will no doubt promote a
More realistic manifesto next time around.

I believe that the voting profile is changing in the U.K.

The Labour Party is attracting an ever increasing level of support from the young professional class and conversely the Tories support from the working classes.

Of course everyone who becomes successful or wealthy does not vote Tory, particularly in academia. There are many examples of very successful people who abhor what the Tories represent.

Stereotyping a voter doesn’t help

Still not a sniff of why people should vote for the 'left wing' policies that they've rejected.

I really am trying to understand what makes people like Grandad so sure that these policies can win an election.

Because if I'm to be criticised for pointing out that they're most unlikely to I'd like to know what the evidence is that they will

MaizieD

Still not a sniff of why people should vote for the 'left wing' policies that they've rejected.

The problem the left have is that Corbyn lost by the biggest margin ever. I accept that Brexit was muddling the vote but I think that we have no alternative other than conclude that the manifesto was well and truly rejected.

Anniebach posts on the Good morning thread daily so perhaps she just can’t be arsed anymore, like a few on here!

She is still posting on other threads.

But why be an Aunt Sally on these political threads?
I expect she had more sense than to put up it.

Grandpa - I agree with your post today at 16.37.
But I can't work out how to reverse this trend.
Why doesn 't the average UK voter trust the Unions? A hangover from Thatcher?
Like you I believe that the TUs are the backbone of the Labour Movement.
"Labour Movement " isn't a very attractive phrase these days when we've been encouraged to get rich quick.

Whitewavemark2 I don't think it's useful just to look at the 2019 election, you need to take into account the results of 2017 when a Tory victory was predicted but didn't happen.The LP policies remained much the same, so why did those polices appeal in 2017 but not in 2019?
MaizieD Nothing that Starmer has done has indicated that he doesn't want to achieve a fairer society. The hate seems to me to be based on factionalism more than on his actions Most of the criticism is of his lack of action. He seems to be incapable of making a real commitment or protesting loudly. In fact other people are really slaughtering this Tory government while he seems only capable of making very careful comments

Fennel

Grandpa - I agree with your post today at 16.37.
But I can't work out how to reverse this trend.
Why doesn 't the average UK voter trust the Unions? A hangover from Thatcher?
Like you I believe that the TUs are the backbone of the Labour Movement.
"Labour Movement " isn't a very attractive phrase these days when we've been encouraged to get rich quick.

Fennal the problem is that the Parliamentary Labour Party has not spoken up for the trade unions in over forty years. They have been content to take the money of often poorly paid trade union members and give them back nothing.

However, the shop floor activist within those unions has maintained a membership of over six million members despite fifteen anti-trade union bills being brought forward by conservative governments since 1980 each one designed to destroy them.

It is alleged the right-wing faction within the Labour Party that set out to undermine Corbyn diverted the money that the above activists encouraged their members to give to the Labour Party via the political levy into unwinnable seats in General Elections that had right wing candidates standing in them.

It is those activists that have now lost all confidence and faith in Kier Starmer for exclusively promoting those very same right wing people into prominent positions within Labours structures.

That is a very real and large problem for the Parliamentary Labour Party going forward and especially one facing insolvency.

I am sorry * Grandad* but whenever I read your posts, which I am sure are sincere and passionate, I have a flashback to the 1970s or even the 1950s.

We are now in the 21st century. Please move on.

varian

I am sorry * Grandad* but whenever I read your posts, which I am sure are sincere and passionate, I have a flashback to the 1970s or even the 1950s.

We are now in the 21st century. Please move on.

So, varian according to you six million working people are totally out of date in their thinking and beliefs.

Just how arrogant can anyone get. It is little wonder that the Liberal Democrats only won twelve seats in this parliment with members whose thoughts are such as yourself.

There you go again Grandad. Please just stop and think. No one believes that you represent the views of six million people.

Attack is not necessarily the best form of defense. Try to construct a more positive case.

I imagine you pulled out all the stops to promote Jeremy Corbyn, but it didn't work, did it?

You, and others who think like you, now have the opportunity to get behind Keir Starmer, who was democratically elected as leader by the membership of the Labour Party.

If you don't want this shambolic right wing Vote Leave government to last forever, please change your attitude.

varian some of the most active and committed women I know are now working in the trade union movement. They are very much 21st century women but they know that colletive activism brings more hope to their employment. They realise that the rights we achieved in the 70s are not safe and employers can and do ignore them (look up "Pregnant then screwed). They are the pioneers, you seem to be the one stuck.

trisher I do not dismiss or denigrate the trade union movement, of which I was once a part, but it is tragic that those who are strong advocates of trade unionism at this time, of all times, chose to try to undermine the leadership of the Labour Party.

I don't quite understand where this six million working people all thinking the same as you, comes from, Grandad. Are they 6 million trade union activists or just 6 million trade union members?

Do you think you could leave off the tribal insults? Please. We all happen to be on the same side, don't we? Get the tories out...

varian, I speak up not for myself but for the six million workers in Great Britain that are members of various trade unions and the activists that represent them. Those activists very often place their own jobs under threat while representing the members in their workplaces.

Of course, if there are many in the Labour Party that think similar to yourself in regard to trade union members then as I have already stated in this thread all the Labour Party has to carry out is to disaffiliate from the Labour movement and make its own way in the Political world.

They would not then need to take all that out of date and disgusting trade union members money.

In the meantime let those who are members of the Liberal Democrats continue to dream in regard to proportional representation and all that. For I remember that matter being discussed in the 1960s and 70s and it is never going to happen in the foreseeable future.

So, perhaps varian you should move on into the 21st century and think through how if the Lib-Dems were to place more support behind working people they just might win a few more seats at the next General Election.

I am sorry to have to spell this out to you Grandad but not one of the trade union members I know agrees with you. Do not take them for granted or pretend that you can speak for all of them. That is where you have gone wrong.

What those of us who do not support this corrupt, incompetent Vote Leave government need to do is to work together.

We need a progressive alliance of all the non-Tories in the UK to defeat and replace this appalling shower elected by a minority of voters under the undemocratic FPTP voting system and make the UK a democratic country.

Keir Starmer is the leader of the Labour Party, the largest opposition party and if the LibDems and Greens and even the Nationalists are willing to join forces with him it is beyond shameful that those who claim to have spent a lifetime in the Labour movement refuse to do what they could and should do, but prefer to fight old battles, keeping the Tories in power for ever.

MaizieD

I don't quite understand where this six million working people all thinking the same as you, comes from, Grandad. Are they 6 million trade union activists or just 6 million trade union members?

Do you think you could leave off the tribal insults? Please. We all happen to be on the same side, don't we? Get the tories out...

MaizieD, there are six million trade union members in Great Britain. That figure was rising prior to the Covid crisis coming about.

Of course, the Unions are expecting membership figures will be hit by the large number of redundancies now taking place, but they have demonstrated tremendous resilience in the face of adversity over the last forty years and I have no doubts that they will overcome what is in front of them now.

In regard to the number of registered lay member activists, I am not sure how many there are throughout the Labour movement but if asked to take a guess I would say around two hundred thousand. It is those among others I have worked with since 2005 while acting as a tutor on trade union industrial safety courses.

It is in the above role I have gained such tremendous respect for the thinking, belief and determination of those people to see better conditions in their workplaces and also a greater equality of life in Britain.

As ever I enjoy posts from varian, Whitewave and MaizieD (apologies for missing out the others who are also Labour /Green/left leaning posters). I appreciate the input from POGS and lemon grove which no doubt puts me firmly in the hopelessly right leaning labour camp so far as some are concerned.
I was a Union member, between 1978 - 20010 when I retired. My feminism was influenced by the grim experiences in the late 70's when the women at socialist/union meetings were expected to brew up and look after the children. Things changed, not least because we began to organise in women only groups.
I'm finding this left - right - bad - good stuff increasingly trying.
We need a Labour government. We failed to achieve that over 10 years. I supported Corbyn in the past two elections, plus the local/european elections. We were trounced. there's a lesson there which we all need to learn from.

MaizieD, there are six million trade union members in Great Britain. That figure was rising prior to the Covid crisis coming about.

This is what I was trying to find out.

I've always been in a union when I've worked, always Unison or prior incarnations, as it happens. I've even been a union rep (though not a terribly good one). In my experience the ordinary rank and file members aren't terribly interested in politics and are not particularly militant. So I'm not seeing 6 million fervent far left socialists in the unions... That's all

No I would agree, I know a few female union members, although the sector I am i unfortunately seems to have low union membership, they dont hold the same views as grandad.
I think varian the issue with an alliance is that I would find that very difficult, I am centre left, I am not a liberal, I dont think I am the only one who feels that.

'*He seems to be incapable of making a real commitment or protesting loudly. In fact other people are really slaughtering this Tory government while he seems only capable of making very careful comments*

too much bumptious shouting around - to me this seems like a very clever way forwards - waiting for the right time.