on both sides of the pond- the extreme left is scuppering their own cause

You know, there really is no harm in criticising ones own party leader, or holding them to account. I have never thought any leader was perfect and I have always valued a ‘broad church’ in the Labour Party. Unfortunately different party leaders at different times have fought against that, or their MPs have refused to accept it.

What I would like to see is an end to rudeness and nastiness on this forum, but sadly I feel that is less likely than complete consensus in the Labour Party. Some people simply cannot help themselves, which is unfortunate really, and an embarrassment amongst mature people.

I dont cheerlead for Starmer, I think he is unlikely to be PM for example. I think he has so much ground to reclaim that we are probably looking at the Tories in power well beyond the next election. But I think he has the capacity to begin building for the future.

I was being sarcastic.

Galaxy

I mean there are no words really are there.
Starmer must be terrified.

Not terrified Galaxy, just realistic in being aware the PLP in part of the Labour movement in Great Britain and act in accordance and respect of that.

There is an alternative path he and others can take if they so wish.

No need for any antagonism in that.

Anyway I am still at work, so see you later. ?

I mean there are no words really are there.
Starmer must be terrified.

In regard to the left v right division within the Labour movement, I believe it can be easily summed up by a series of posts on this forum a few days back.

I was asked what I wished to see as central policy under Starmer's Leadership, to which I replied:-

An end to Zero Hours Employment Contracts.

An end to Gig economy terms of employment.

Total legislative reform of the rented housing sector in the UK.

A huge national council house building program.

Repeal of at least some sectors of the fifteen anti-trade union bills brought in under Tory governments since 1980.

The response to the above by several forum members was to conclude that the above was a recipe to maintain conservatives governments in office for the foreseeable future.

Therefore if so-called Labour supporters are not prepared to accept the above as basic core policy of a future Labour government then there has to be a conclusion of the relationship between the wider Labour Movement in the United Kingdom and the Parliamentary Labour Party (PLP).

No trade union General Secretary could expect to get anything less than those five core policy principles past any of its lay member activist led constitutional committees (Branch, District, Reginal, National or Delegate Conference)

In the above, should it be that Starmer does not, or cannot, reaffirm his and the Shadow cabinets commitment to such policies and open up a realistic and meaningful dialogue with the trade unions and other affiliate left-leaning bodies within the broad movement then there can be no other outcome but the severing of the one hundred years plus relationship between the whole Labour movement and the PLP.

Those that wish to see and be in support of a Tory mark 2 party would then be free to go their own way in the political world and I am sure that all within the Broader Labour movement would wish them well as they too plotted new political paths.

Former Green MEP Molly Scott-Cato writes-

"Many Labour MPs will say that they support proportional representation, but their party policy is still to support the first-past-the-post system, a position that Yanis Varoufakis has called ‘contemptible’. But it is not irrational. Labour are consciously choosing to allow these dangerous Conservatives to hold power because they fear loss of the power granted to them by the two-party system."

www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/progressives-must-rally-together-demand-democracy/

In other words it does not seem to matter that FPTP gives such advantage of the Tories. (and the SNP).

According to analysis by the House of Commons Library, ‘In 2019 the Conservatives got one seat for every 38,264 votes, while Labour got one seat for every 50,837 votes. It took many more votes to elect a Lib Dem (336,038) and Green MP (866,435), but far fewer to elect an SNP MP (25,883)’.

The supporters of FPTP in the Labour Party seem to think that since their party did win FPTP elections in the past it is bound to do so again when the Tories have done so much damage to the country that even the tabloids start to support Labour.

In the meantime they not only resist any involvement in a progressive alliance with other parties, they do not even want to co-operate with their own elected leader.

Don't think that sort of chat would go down too well in the Home Counties or anywhere much south of Birmingham!! It's no good preaching to the converted, as growstuff says it's convincing the above that's important if you want the numbers, and language like 'brylcreemed s.....e' ain't going to do it!!!!!! Oh and Momentum to is viewed with great suspicion in the above places, so best keep them under wraps as TB did with Millitant! Again if you want the numbers, and it's numbers that finally count, not old fashioned ideology which can be a big turn off for those particular numbers!

Is lovely Councillor Morton among us, I wonder. So helpful this

''Speaking of her party leader, she added: "Wind your neck in you brylcreemed sh*******."

She continued: "This class war will be fought without you, in spite of you, you're an embarrassment to those kids who were waiting for you to finally grow a spine and hold this government to account, but you didn't, they did.

"So don't you dare attempt to mark this up as a win for the 'leadership.'"

Do you think this is an appropriate way for an elected councillor to comment on her party leader? Or should councillors be able to comment on 'personal' social media accounts in a different way to their 'public-facing' accounts? Let us know in the comments below

Aiming her ire at Sir Keir and deputy leader Angela Rayner, Cllr Morton added: "This was a grassroots win, so you and Ange should be worried, because they are coming for your jobs, and the rest of us arl activists will do whatever we can to support them #socialism."

Surely the main thrust should be to get rid of this apology for a government as soon as possible . That is what a UNITED L.P.should be working towards.

trisher If Starmer came out now and stated that he was as left-wing as you would like, what do you think the voters in Gloucester, Shrewsbury and Atcham, Bournemouth East, Colchester, Harrow East and Chipping Barnet would think? Like it or not, the Labour Party needs some of them if it's ever going to form a government.

There's no point increasing the voter base in places like Manchester or London because they already return Labour MPs.

I suggest that expending energy on criticising the Conservatives might be more fruitful than endless incestuous squabbling.

This is the worst government I can ever remember, but it seems some in the Labour Party are intent on self-destruction because a Labour government wouldn't be socialist enough. A Labour government would be better for many people than the current government. If people want to wait around for a Labour Party which is socialist enough, they could find themselves dead.

Yes Grany -so how can we change it?

The only joke is this Boris Johnson and the public were fooled into voting for him helped along with election fraud and the Establishment who were determined not to let socialism in.

varian if criticising the Labour leader is regarded as "allowing the Tories in" what is asking for the moon( or a new electoral system)?
Wouldn't it be nice if some on GN could actually discuss something without descending to telling others exactly what they consider them responsible for. So instead of someone ponting out to me Starmer's vociferous support for asylum seekers, his loud calls for government resignations, his condemnation of Cummings & co, they tell me how well he does on PMQT, and then accuse me of being responsible for the ERG and Cummings. It is time they realised that yes there is a left wing cohort in the Labour Party and they are not going away. They believe there were elements on the right of the party who effectively destroyed Labour's chances and they are not prepared to sit back and see that happen anymore. They aren't asking for the moon, just that Starmer nails his colours to the mast and either speaks out for a party that encompasses the left wing or makes very clear the policies he would trade in as leader. While he fails to do this discontent brews.

Although I am not a member of the Labour Party I was quite hopeful when Corbyn was elected that he might be able to move the political centre of gravity to the left.

He turned out to be a huge disappointment. In fact the opposite has been allowed to happen. Corbyn appeared only to be at home addressing his loyal fans. He did not ever reach out beyond. He went from being a cult icon to a joke. He simply was not up to the job.

Admittedly he was treated unfairly by the right wing media, but then so are all non-Tory politicians. He may even been on the receiving end of online skullduggery, but it is nonsense to suggest that his failure was the fault of the PLP.

The surest way - possibly the only way to get rid of this right wing minority dictatorship is to introduce proper democracy in the UK. With a system of proportional representation it would be much easier for big parties to split, for smaller parties to grow, and for the majority of the electorate to be represented in government.

It’s rather ironic that for several years on gransnet supporters of Jeremy Corbyn were reviled and insulted by supposed supporters of the Labour Party who apparently never questioned their own duty to be loyal to the elected leader. Yet after a few short months of Keir Starmer becoming leader, we are told we must be loyal, we are doing the Tories’ work for them, and even to ‘shut up’. Oh and we are accused of not wanting a labour government. If a few of those inside the PLP had been loyal the country might not be in the mess it’s in now.

And that means that the Labour Party needs to gain about 120 seats at the next election.

It's interesting to look at the seats it needs to win. The majority of current Conservative/Labour marginals are in the North West (21 of 120), but the rest are reasonably evenly spread across all regions (including Wales and Scotland) apart from the Home County Tory shires. They include places like Gloucester, Shrewsbury and Atcham, Bournemouth East, Colchester, Harrow East and Chipping Barnet.

That means we need a Labour Party the majority of the public trust and will vote for.

Absolutely this.

Yes indeed to Biba, Whitewave, growstuf, devorgilla and all who say we need a Labour government. That means we need a Labour Party the majority of the public trust and will vote for.

growstuff

Same here biba. It's absolutely unbelievable that some so-called socialists are doing Tory hardliners' work for them. It makes me sad and angry too because there are people who really have suffered from ten years of Tory government and it's set to continue with the kind of stance people like grandad take. Few people care about "pure socialism" or want a revolution. They're more bothered by having the opportunity of a job, a roof over their head, food on the table and a benefits system which provides a safety net when things go wrong. Grandad doesn't seem to give a stuff about them and resorts to childish name-calling and using hackneyed mantras.

I despair!

I honestly don’t think that those so called socialist credentials stand up to the tiniest scrutiny when it is clear that they would rather see a Tory government than pull together to save our country and support the unemployed, the homeless the NHS etc.

I had severe and honest reservations over Corbyn, but I supported him until the end. I could see that a labour government is always preferable, particularly with this incompetent shower we have to tolerate.

Pure self indulgence in their part that needs kicking into touch.

Grandad1943, the email I got was from General Secretary David Evans inviting members to register for Connected in place of the Conference from 19th-22nd September. Women's Connected on 19th and after that Angela Rayner to launch events from 20th-22nd. Keynote speeches, policy events, fringe meetings, training etc. Open to all members and entirely online. Debates involving all including the TUs. Is this the one you are talking about?

Same here biba. It's absolutely unbelievable that some so-called socialists are doing Tory hardliners' work for them. It makes me sad and angry too because there are people who really have suffered from ten years of Tory government and it's set to continue with the kind of stance people like grandad take. Few people care about "pure socialism" or want a revolution. They're more bothered by having the opportunity of a job, a roof over their head, food on the table and a benefits system which provides a safety net when things go wrong. Grandad doesn't seem to give a stuff about them and resorts to childish name-calling and using hackneyed mantras.

I despair!

Wwmk2 - same here.

If the divisions as seen here on GN result in Cummings and ERG getting in again - I will never ever forgive those who cause this to happen.

The divide grows wider Grandad- because it is exactly what some of you want- and it will be on you conscience forever. Best if I keep out of this 'discussion' as it makes me so sad, disappointed, and yes, very very angry.

Devorgilla, in regard to your post @22:31 today the Labour Party Annual Delegate Conference due to be held in mid September has been cancelled.

However, the TUC has now decided that it's Congress conference is to definitely now take place in mid September. I am not sure if that is the conference you are referring to in your post, but I believe that Kier Starmer has been invited to address the conference but no response to that invitation has yet been received.

And so the divide grows ever wider.