A group has been created with the aim of removing the government

I have to say I am very disappointed with the low standard of debate by the Tory supporters on GN. It seems to amount to a playground chant of "We won ha ha ha""

Having said that I don't really think that this thread is the best place for us to debate. The OP started telling us about someone who wants to overthrow the government.

Now, in my opinion, that would be a good thing as this government must be the most corrupt and incompetent government we have ever had.

However, I am not about to sign up to his group. I am already an active member of the Liberal Democrats and support the Campaign for Electoral Reform

The problem we have on GN is the inability of Tory GNetters to defend this awful government, or to get beyond the playground chant of "we won ha ha ha".

I suggest that GNetters who are interested in a progressive political future join the LibDems, or another progressive party and continue to campaign for electoral reform.

We do know that electoral reform will not happen tomorrow, but if we do not support this undemocratic sham democracy, we must make it happen.

That nonsense referendum was just one of the mistakes made by Nick Clegg. Many LibDems were against it. No-one actually wanted AV, but many, not just LibDems wanted PR.

Those who have been elected by FPTP know very well that it is not democratic, but if they think it gives an advantage to their party they don't care - because they are NOT democrats.

No AV isn’t PR but was the choice for the public at the time they voted, the Lib Dems were hoping it would be chosen, but we voted to keep FPTP instead.

AV is not PR.

Ok varian ...to be precise, in 2011 there was a UK referendum on changing from FPTP to AV which was rejected ( so PR had no chance) and there was a debate in 2016/17 ? In the Commons on PR.
There was no vote at that time, and probably never likely to be.

I bet it would all be fair if Labour or lib/dems had an 80 seat majority!! Just like the referendum which would have been perfectly fair and properly run had remain won!!!

"The present system has clearly broken down. The results produced are not fair to any party, nor to any section of the community. In many cases they do not secure majority representation, nor do they secure an intelligent representation of minorities. All they secure is fluke representation, freak representation, capricious representation."

Winston Churchill on First Past the Post

conservativeelectoralreform.org.uk/support-reform/first-past-the-post/

We have never "rejected PR". We have never been given the opportunity to vote on PR.

Having rejected PR in the past, it’s unlikely to be voted on again anytime soon. The OP writes of a group who wish to overthrow an elected government.We all know it won’t ever happen .....there are a lot of strange naive and also gullible people out there so he may acquire a small following.

We believe the current voting system (First Past the Post) is unfair, outdated and not fit for purpose. We want to see FPTP replaced with a voting system in which everyone's vote counts, seats are allocated broadly in proportion to the votes cast, and the link is maintained between MPs and their constituents.

www.labourcampaignforelectoralreform.org.uk/

Countries with PR are more successful at reducing carbon emissions than majoritarian countries

greenlibdems.org.uk/en/article/2020/1371468/countries-with-pr-are-more-successful-at-reducing-carbon-emissions-than-majoritarian-countries

How coronavirus pandemic has shown proportional representation is vital for UK

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/how-coronavirus-pandemic-has-shown-proportional-representation-vital-uk-wendy-chamberlain-mp-2878075

What kind of Brexit was Johnson elected to "get done"? The day of reckoning is approaching.

It is all a pie in the sky discussion by dreamers. ?

Exactly Grandad!

Electoral Reform Society @electoralreform
·
We're calling for Labour to join others in backing proportional representation this #DemandDemocracy day

Boris was elected to get brexit done! Hunt (lovely man) would have been quite useless in that respect, the EU would have sorted fishing in 5 minutes flat by walking all over him and him agreeing to everything they asked! Did no one notice how relieved he was to lose the leadership, wonder why?! TM mark 2!! It was the WA that was oven ready not the trade deal, but then we all know that - yes we do,!!

Link www.mercurynews.com/2020/07/30/anarchists-and-antifa-not-according-to-the-data/

I suggest you read this about the protest in Portland POGS. The idea that those involved are violent activists isn't supported by the evidence. Most are local, most have never been arrested before, many are professionals, there was even a "Wall of Mums".https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/07/30/anarchists-and-antifa-not-according-to-the-data/

The "diehard dinosaur recalcitrants" need to accept that a socialist utopia isn't going to happen any time soon. PR as a voting system won't happen, but people on the left (and you don't need to be very left-wing to disagree with this government) need to swallow their differences and work together, which they would have to do with PR. To that extent, I agree with Toynbee.

I am not saying we can bring about electoral reform any time soon growstuff, but it is absolutely necessary that we continue to campaign for a proper democracy, and the support of the Labour Party is crucial.

Those LP activists who Polly Toynbee describes as "diehard dinosaur recalcitrants" cling to their belief that the undemocratic FPTP system will eventually deliver a Labour government again, just because it has in the past.

It is time they woke up to the fact that times have changed and our political system must also change if we are ever to get rid of the corrupt right-wing Vote Leave dictatorship who have already done so much damage.

varian I fully support PR, but I've accepted that it won't happen. I think arguing for it is a waste of time in the current climate.

We need "Realpolitik" politics with people who can make a real difference to what's happening to this country now.

Sorry! It wasn't a historian. It was Jay Simkin and Aaron S Zelman who presented the hypothesis that guns could have saved Jews in Germany.

What's the moral difference between using guns against Nazis and violence against fascists?

Returning to the question of Proportional Representation, according to Polly Toynbee-

"Starmer has backed a constitutional convention and electoral reform, but will need to push it through some diehard dinosaur recalcitrants to get it into the Labour manifesto. Nonetheless, a YouGov poll shows 75% of Labour members back PR."

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/10/lead-lib-dems-labour-coalition-parties-leaders

Ironically, there's some right-wing historian in the US who thinks the holocaust would never have happened if Jews had been allowed to own guns.

I don't agree with the tactics of Antifa or groups which advocate violence. However, it has often troubled me that I would have been one of the well meaning liberals who enabled Nazism by doing nothing.

"The road to Auschwitz was built by hate, but paved with indifference." (Sir Ian Kershaw)

Antifa are not the bogeymen Trump thinks they are. They're an irritant to law enforcers, but have never been responsible for the number of murders which neo-Nazis and other right-wing extremists have.

I wouldn't say the monarchical system is benign far from it. It is undemocratic
Charles interferes in politics, lobbies the government to protect his own interests. This system gives a lot of power to government this head of state can only do what the government says not work in the interests of the people. So really what's it good for? It is secretive unacountable and corrupt

They cost 345 million Their annual report says 40 million.

Sovereign grant now stands at 80 million can never go down only up. Over 100 million in security costs. Then over 20 million each for the two duchies Charles runs his like own private feefdom its feudal People can't buy land which their houses sit on.

They travel everywhere by helicopters, etc including for their own private use. Who else is allowed to get away with this.

They spend public money as it's their own Nothing is done ever said about this.

An Elected Head of State could be chosen from Doctors sientists someone who has achieved something good in their field of work It would not nessessarily be a politition there are over 60 million people here there would be a wealth of talent to choose from. They could as a democracy also hold the government to account.

That's my opinion.