Land of Hope and Glory

How about a competition for new words to put to the music in question?

I do agree that Blake’s words are misunderstood. ‘Dark satanic mills’ says it all! Elgar, apparently did not want his wonderful music to be used for this purpose either

biba70

the Belgrano was not a ship- it was a ship full of people, fathers and grandfathers and hope in front of them. Just like 'Gerry' ... and I am glad Simon Rattle felt that.

Was the Belgrano not out of the threat zone and sailing away?

Having been an active participant in the Falklands War, and having lost several friends and colleagues in that action, I am acutely aware of the human cost involved - and not just in the Belgrano. Some 255 British Servicemen and 3 Falkland Islanders died during the fight to reverse the Argentines' illegal invasion and occupation. I think Simon Rattle (and you) might do better to respect their sacrifice, rather than worry about the words of 'Rule Britannia'. The Belgrano was indeed outside the Total Exclusion Zone and heading away from the Task Force when she was sunk - but that was irrelevant. Only hours before, she had been heading towards the Task Force as part of a (failed) co-ordinated attack, and she was sunk whilst re-positioning prior to a further attempt. As I wrote in my previous comments, the Argentine Navy (including the Belgrano's captain) always acknowledged that her sinking was an entirely justified and legitimate act of warfare, so please do not perpetuate the canard that there was something underhand about it.

It doesn’t worry me , , Wales certainly had dark satanic mills,
owned by the English

Mawbe I went to school in Malvern and Worcester (not the public school). Obviously Elgar was high in the curriculum but, we were always cautioned that Elgar disliked his music being used as a military tune glorifying the Empire.

I was trying to think how you would manage to get the other countries in the UK into the poem but you can't. And anyway it is England Jesus is supposed to have visited as a boy-not the others. As for building Jerusalem I suspect Blake's was not what the majority of UK citizens think it was.

Anniebach

True Jerusalem is not in praise of the England Boris is promoting but it is of building a new Jerusalem in England,
not Scotland, Ireland or Wales

As it isn't a 'patriotic' song, Annie, I don't know why it worries you that Wales and Scotland aren't included. It is, after all, very critical of England. (Though I'm sure that his criticism would have applied as much to Wales and Scotland at the time he wrote the poem)

True Jerusalem is not in praise of the England Boris is promoting but it is of building a new Jerusalem in England,
not Scotland, Ireland or Wales

Another tune played is the Sailor's Hornpipe another nautical one.
I realised recently that the tune is also the last part of Greig's Holberg suite - scroll to 17.20
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ6AaBArhRw&pbjreload=101
So is it British or Norwegian?

Jerusalem is just for England it is a lovely tune spoilt by the lyrics which do not make sense
They made absolute sense to Blake when he wrote them and if you do a little research you might understand them better. They are certainly not in praise of the England that Boris is promoting but a condemnation of the industrialisation Blake sees around him and a call for others to rise up and establish a better world. His beliefs are complex but he dislikes the church and state and sees redemption coming through artists, poets and the imagination

the Belgrano was not a ship- it was a ship full of people, fathers and grandfathers and hope in front of them. Just like 'Gerry' ... and I am glad Simon Rattle felt that.

Was the Belgrano not out of the threat zone and sailing away?

biba70

Totally agree with Simon Rattle. And felt just the same at the time of the Falklands, and the Belgrano was shot in the back.

www.facebook.com/watch/?v=616683382608445&extid=KC1jSqS3q7CaXk0z

I cannot for the life of me see why Simon Rattle should have been uneasy about "Rule Britannia" whilst 'battleships were sailing'. The British Task Force was sailing to end - by lethal force if necessary (and as it turned out) - the Argentines' illegal invasion and occupation of the Falkland Islands. What better occasion to exhort Britannia to rule the waves? And, by the way, the Belgrano was not "shot in the back", with its connotations of a cowardly act. She was sunk by two torpedoes, fired from a position ahead of her beam, because she posed a continuing threat to that same Task Force - as even the Argentine Navy have consistently acknowledged.

Callistemon

growstuff

"You'll Never Walk Alone" is associated with Liverpool FC.

It is now, after the Hillsborough disaster.

It's a beautiful song from a lovely, weepie film.

Liverpool used it as an anthem long before Hillsborough.

So did my parents, Callistemon!

Not sure how I feel after reading that Oopsminty
I think old is the term, although I didn't see it when it first came out.

Of course! It was Gerry and the Pacemakers who sang it later, a Liverpool group which is why Liverpool adopted it, probably.

Callistemon

I always associate it with the American film Carousel, written by Rodgers and Hammerstein, EllanVannin.

So did my parents, Callistemon!

They disliked football intensely and were rather upset at it becoming a football anthem

I think it sounds wonderful myself

1963 was when they adopted it apparently

Celtic fans also sing it.

Great tune

I always associate it with the American film Carousel, written by Rodgers and Hammerstein, EllanVannin.

growstuff

"You'll Never Walk Alone" is associated with Liverpool FC.

It is now, after the Hillsborough disaster.

It's a beautiful song from a lovely, weepie film.

"You'll Never Walk Alone" is associated with Liverpool FC.

I think " You'll Never Walk Alone " has become synonymous with this country as it's recognised all over the world.

Anniebach how I agree that Jerusalem is just for England it is a lovely tune spoilt by the lyrics which do not make sense . John Suchet played it one day to comemorate some important anniversary of WW2 and I was mad .

Like Dame Judy and Janey Godley I’m not adverse to the odd swear word. What I do object to in those whose vocabulary is so limited theY keep using the same one, ad nauseam.

To be honest I’m more offended by what some people think rather than the language they use to express themselves.

Hardly needs discussion!

I'm fascinated by the outrage being expressed over the use of the letter F as it is mainly being expressed by posters who support the most mendacious, corrupt and incompetent PM the country has ever had. And his equally appalling government.

Not a whisper of moral outrage about that...

Anniebach

Lucca the ‘f’ word is offensive to many, fact.

I am sure it is. That’s not my point! I was disputing the fact that anyone who uses the word, even if only occasionally, is by definition lacking in vocabulary.

Obviously I mean unnecessary and rude.

growstuff we agree on something ??