Breaking International Law

Yes and it’s the oven ready deal they now want to change.

So it was a lie to say the WA was oven ready? Did they sign it with their fingers crossed? Barnier is only insisting they do what they signed up to, not change it as they go along.

FGS, people on here would say black is white if it suited their agenda, I give up ! Cheerio have a good day!

Exactly and as said before- either

- Johnson did NOT understand what he signed up for

or, and more likely

- he knew it was not what he/they wanted, understood the issues clearly, but crossed their fingers behind their back and signed, to get elected- knowing they would not honour it- and it would give them an excuse to blame the EU for being 'intransigeant'.

Both are utterly dishonourable, the second 100x more- and I so wish the Queen would refuse to give assent- as it is not a matter of political 'opinion'- but puts HRH's reputation, and that of the whole country, in question. She does NOT have to give assent to lies and dishonesty.

Jaberwok

FGS, people on here would say black is white if it suited their agenda, I give up ! Cheerio have a good day!

Jaberwok, sorry you have gone but I'm sure you will be back. So I'll post again a summary of what I posted some time ago and even if you don't see it, others will see that this ridiculous story about Barnier and the NI is just made up, by some who definitely have an agenda.

The Barnier clip : www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1335006/Brexit-News-Michel-Barnier-BBC-audio-Boris-Johnson-Ireland-latest-news

Its a 2 minute clip from a 2-hour documentary, made by the BBC, and Barnier is saying the exact opposite of what people are pretending he said. He is recommending leaving NI out of the negotiations for the time being, so that they can move ahead. And they then go on to discuss how this would go down with the other member states because they want to get everything settled. Maybe people should watch the whole program?

Interesting as well that a few moments before, they were talking about the fact that Raab went into negotiations and tried to change things that had already been agreed. And May reneged on agreements about the backstop. Sounds familiar.

In short - well not that short:

Credit: @RussInCheshire
“In 2016 we voted to leave the EU.
But if we do that without a Trade Deal, we risk making a lot of our economy noncompetitive.
Why?
Because if you don't have a Trade Deal, you have to use WTO (World Trade Org) rules. And those include tariffs.
What are tariffs?
Tariffs are a kind of tax: between around 10% and 90% of the value of the thing you trade. So for example, beef that we currently sell to Spain for £10 will now cost £19.
And that means it's cheaper for Spain to buy beef from France. So they will. So our beef farmers suffer.
We assemble lots of cars in the UK. We import parts (add tariff) and export cars (add tariff again).
So eg: 10% on car parts becomes 20% by the time we've imported the parts and exported the car.
So a Nissan made in UK cost 20% more than the same Nissan made in Denmark.
This doesn't mean Nissan will immediately close their plants in the UK. But it means next time they choose where to build a new model, they'll pick somewhere 20% cheaper, inside the EU.
Same goes for 1000s of manufacturers and industries that import parts and export good.
Why do tariffs even exist?
They're a form of tax (UK treasury makes money from tariffs on countries we don't have deals with), and they protect domestic industries (make other countries more expensive).
But we can't eliminate them. WTO exists, and we can't stop it.
But why are we struggling to get a deal with the EU? If they want one and we want one, it should be easy.
We do both want one. But ...
The Irish Border. Lots of people warned about this before the referendum, but were mostly ignored.
3600 died in violence the "Irish troubles"
This was ended by the Good Friday Agreement (GFA), which (to simplify it) "removed" the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. Free movement, free trade, no guards. And a lasting peace.
So why is the border a problem now?
Because of something called "regulatory standards".
To facilitate free trade inside the EU, all nations agree to follow certain standards. That way, you don't need to check Product X meets your standard when you import it.
But the UK wants to no longer follow EU standards.
And that means we have to check goods at the Irish Border again.
And to do that we have to add checkpoints at the border.
And this breaks the GFA.
And unfortunately for the UK, the GFA has guarantors, who insist we stick to the GFA.
When the GFA was signed, multiple nations backed it by agreeing to step in and stop anybody from breaking it. For example, by adding a border.
Those guarantors include EU and USA.
So we are legally bound to NOT do anything to add a border in Ireland.
The EU can't sign any Trade Deal with the UK that adds a border on the island of Ireland.
The USA have said they won't sign a Trade Deal with the UK if the GFA is broken.
And between them, USA and EU are are around 50% of our trade. The costs to us of no deal could be huge.
Doesn't mean we won't trade with them at all. Just means the things we trade will be 10% to 90% more expensive... and as I said earlier, that will really, really hurt our economy.
So how do we resolve this?
Since 2016, the UK and EU have been exploring multiple options.
Those options are
1: A border between NI and Ireland
2: A border between NI and the rest of the UK, somewhere in the Irish Sea
3: Continue to accept EU rules
Unfortunately
1: breaks the GFA
2: breaks up the UK
3: is the opposite of Brexit
There really isn't a 4th option
Theresa May spent years trying to look for a way around this, and failed.
Boris Johnson signed a Withdrawal Agreement (WA) last year which effectively did option 2 (border in the Irish Sea), but told everybody it didn't.
His govt voted to prevent parliament scrutinising the WA
And now he's saying he wants to break the WA (i.e. break the law) and look for a new solution.
But there are only 2 solutions left: break the GFA, or keep following EU rules.
The govt says they will find "alternative arrangements" before the deadline.
But nobody can say what those are. We have been looking for alternative arrangements since 2016. It cost Theresa May her job, and now Boris Johnson is up against exactly the same issues. His solution is to break peace treaties, but obviously, may object.
And that's essentially where we are.

As Starmer said on Marr this morning- either the PM and co knew- or they didn't- responsible and guilty in both cases- criminally int he former, very stupidly in the second.

However you look at it - this is NOT the fault of the EU, and certainly not caused by their intransigeance- but the sheer stupidity, or total dishonesty, of our Government.

Thanks for the @RussInCheshire brilliant clear explanation of where we're at with brexit biba70

It should be complusory reading for everyone who thinks it's all the fault of the EU - ie the readers of the Express, Torygraph, Sun, Mail etc.

So what happens over fishing, the ECJ, and state aid? bearing in mind we are now are now an independent sovereign country or are these irrelevant and just ridiculous things to fuss about. I would love to hear Grandads take on this as he seems to be the only person on the left who really understands the situation properly, realistically, without prejudice and doesn't resort to insults when it explaining his position.

The summary I posted explains the situation very clearly- and succintly, considering- and does not contain any insults. No insults from us, just facts.

May I ask Jaberwork- which do you think was the case, plain stupid and incompetent, or absolute liar and fraudster?

No change there then Kamiso.
We stick to the rules like flies round s..t
Will we ever learn ? NAHHHHH.

So what happens over fishing, the ECJ, and state aid?

They should have been considered in the original negotiations over the Withdrawal Agreement. If Johnson didn't like them he should have done something about it this time last year.

Do you not understand, Jabberwok that the WA that he is now objecting to is the one that he trumpeted as being an absolute triumph from which the UK could move forward into negotiating an FTA? He rushed it through Parliament with no time for proper scrutiny and he signed it off with the EU knowing that it was covered by international law.

When it comes down to it, there is no solution to the NI and GFA problem that anything, apart from staying in the Single Market and the Customs Union, can sort out. That is what the thread that biba70 posted is all about.

Too late to be bringing up fishing, state aid and the ECJ because it's all been agreed to.

When are you Brexiters ever going to face reality?

When are you ever going to understand what it was like for the people of NI to undergo 30 years of conflict and terror, and realise what a disaster it will be if the GFA is broken?

biba thanks for that.

Just reading that 70% of our medicine is produced in the EU.

No deal is going to make life interesting.

DH drugs are nearly all manufactured in Spain.

biba70

The summary I posted explains the situation very clearly- and succintly, considering- and does not contain any insults. No insults from us, just facts.

May I ask Jaberwork- which do you think was the case, plain stupid and incompetent, or absolute liar and fraudster?

Do you not understand, biba70, that being asked to face reality is insulting?

MaizieD

biba70

The summary I posted explains the situation very clearly- and succintly, considering- and does not contain any insults. No insults from us, just facts.

May I ask Jaberwork- which do you think was the case, plain stupid and incompetent, or absolute liar and fraudster?

Do you not understand, biba70, that being asked to face reality is insulting?

And, I was the one who was told this morning that she wasn't being honest. Bit of an insult, I think. Just as well I've got a thick skin when it comes to what Brexiters think of me.

As I say, I would be very interested to get Grandads opinion on these matters. Perhaps we shall hear from him in due course.

I always suspected that Boris intended to stuff the oven-ready deal at some later date!

I don't think that Grandad's opinion is going to change the facts. But perhaps it's a 'men know better than women' thing...

In reality, of course, no one is threatening the GFA and nor is anyone proposing a hard border in Ireland.

(If you doubt that, just ask who would build it.)

Could you explain your statement Urmstongran- as this makes no sense here. Thanks.

Plain fact ''*there are only 2 solutions left: break the GFA, or keep following EU rules.'*

if you have another solution (and experts have been looking for years, without finding one) - please tell us, and tell the Government too.

Obviously those in thrall to Johnson and his government will excuse him anything. The fact that the oven ready WA deal is anything but, and that they want to change what they wrote themselves and signed up to is evident and can’t be denied. It has incompetence written all over it.

No need to be snide biba.

It just means that with the technology available nowadays the lightest of touches for trade & tariffs could be applied - mostly electronically.

The good people of the island of Ireland can be reassured by the EU that this ‘needs’ to be done, not by the UK. No hard border. Just a soft one to collect monies due to the EU before goods pass into the RoI. ‘Trusted traders’ will enhance the smooth running of the set up.

The UK won’t need to get involved. Politicians can reassure and calm the electorate.

It just means that with the technology available nowadays the lightest of touches for trade & tariffs could be applied - mostly electronically.

A) I'm not sure that this technology exists
B) How do you 'light touch with technology' SPS inspections (which have to be undertaken close to the border)?