We need action now as we have the benefit of hindsight

Bluebelle, I am in total agreement with your posts. I really fail to understand how any sort of general lockdown can help. Yes, it may lower the infections figures temporarily - but as soon is it ceases then the figures will rise again.
In the meanwhile, the damage to the general economy and the serious damage to so many families personal economies and plans and hopes for the future worsens beyond measure.
How many extra deaths from lack of cancer treatments, too late treatments for many other illnesses, from depression brought on by lockdown and financial crashes, just increase and increase.
Yes, those who feel themselves at serious risk from this particular illness should be the ones to lockdown (assuming they can without loss of jobs, etc), and let the rest of the country, particularly the children and younger generations get on with their lives,.

Thank you Urmstongran for letting us know the situation in Spain. Anyone would think we were the only country struggling with Covid and trying to work out what to do to protect the economy, at the same time as trying to stop the spread.
This government hasn't always made the right decisions but I feel it's damned if it does and damned if it doesn't.
There are no rule books, no instructions, no rights and wrongs.
Children need to be at school, businesses need to be able to open but everyone needs to do their bit and follow the rules.

I’ve recently read an article that claimed that almost all countries have ended up in the same place irrespective of whether they did/didn’t have lockdown.

Japan had no lockdown but came through no worse off than any other country and that even in war-torn Yemen, cases had fallen dramatic by June despite almost no precautions being able to take place.

Our lockdown was initially to protect the NHS. I hope we’ve got our ducks all lined up now in that respect now ?so I suppose we need to consider what the aim of a further lockdown would be.

It seems unlikely that we’ll be able to eliminate the virus entirely in the short term because each time a lockdown is eased, it will surge again. We do have the benefit now of knowing a lot more about the illness and who is most affected so maybe we need to concentrate on protecting those people whilst allowing others to take up a near-as-possible life again and also to prevent an excess of people from dying from non-Covid conditions and also suffering from MH problems caused by prolonged lockdowns.

Whilst the concentration is on the control of covid, what about the many thousands of people whose lives are at risk from other illnesses like heart disease, cancer and strokes?

It’s already feared that many lives have been lost due to the cessation of treatment or simply the fact that people have been too scared to go to hospital for a diagnosis or treatment.

These people shouldn’t be ignored, but I fear that is what is happening.

Could we have the situation where more people die of other illnesses than covid?

Franbern in regard to your post @ 22:25 today, a second lockdown will slow the rate of infection. In that, it will protect the NHS from being overwhelmed and almost as importantly the essential services from severe numbers of infections among their employees preventing those services from operating.

So Franbern, if you do not wish to be sat at home in the dark after finding next to nothing on your local supermarket shelves you may do well to take serious note of the instructions of the government and then we all may get through this crisis with at least some semblance of normal life.

Then a return to restoring Britains shattered economy may begin.

It makes you want to tear your hair out.

Coronavirus has reached Europe? - let's close our border - oops, too late!
Coronavirus is here? - let's lockdown to protect ourselves - oops, too late!
Lockdown at last - let's use this window to create a test and trace system - oops, too late!

Heaven help us all.

JenniferEccles

Whilst the concentration is on the control of covid, what about the many thousands of people whose lives are at risk from other illnesses like heart disease, cancer and strokes?

It’s already feared that many lives have been lost due to the cessation of treatment or simply the fact that people have been too scared to go to hospital for a diagnosis or treatment.

These people shouldn’t be ignored, but I fear that is what is happening.

Could we have the situation where more people die of other illnesses than covid?

There's no reason why services for cancer and cardiovascular can't continue, which has been noted in the latest recommendations. We just need a competent government to get people to organise it.

It's a myth peddled by the likes of Sikora that more people will die from cancer than Covid.

Sar53

Thank you Urmstongran for letting us know the situation in Spain. Anyone would think we were the only country struggling with Covid and trying to work out what to do to protect the economy, at the same time as trying to stop the spread.
This government hasn't always made the right decisions but I feel it's damned if it does and damned if it doesn't.
There are no rule books, no instructions, no rights and wrongs.
Children need to be at school, businesses need to be able to open but everyone needs to do their bit and follow the rules.

Children do need to be at school, which is precisely why the government should have listened to the people who foresaw the difficulties and to mitigate them, not continue with the fingers in the ears, repeat the mantra approach.

growstuff

JenniferEccles

Whilst the concentration is on the control of covid, what about the many thousands of people whose lives are at risk from other illnesses like heart disease, cancer and strokes?

It’s already feared that many lives have been lost due to the cessation of treatment or simply the fact that people have been too scared to go to hospital for a diagnosis or treatment.

These people shouldn’t be ignored, but I fear that is what is happening.

Could we have the situation where more people die of other illnesses than covid?

There's no reason why services for cancer and cardiovascular can't continue, which has been noted in the latest recommendations. We just need a competent government to get people to organise it.

It's a myth peddled by the likes of Sikora that more people will die from cancer than Covid.

There are plenty of reasons why services for cancer and cardio can't continue.

Come on, you're an intelligent woman.

There is a lot of disquiet in the medical world about services being put on the back burner. Nothing to do with Sikora

There are plenty of links explaining the massive problems facing the whole world. I posted this link earlier. Maybe you missed it. It's worth a read

www.bbc.com/future/article/20200528-why-most-covid-19-deaths-wont-be-from-the-virus

Sar53

Thank you Urmstongran for letting us know the situation in Spain. Anyone would think we were the only country struggling with Covid and trying to work out what to do to protect the economy, at the same time as trying to stop the spread.
This government hasn't always made the right decisions but I feel it's damned if it does and damned if it doesn't.
There are no rule books, no instructions, no rights and wrongs.
Children need to be at school, businesses need to be able to open but everyone needs to do their bit and follow the rules.

For goodness sake, the government has had months and has spent billions on getting things right and it's a shambles. There most definitely are rights and wrongs, as any competent manager knows.

Tell me why services for cancer and cardio can't continue. There should be excellent infection control anyway and there is no reason why pathways within hospitals can't be organised so that cancer and cardio patients don't ever come in contact with Covid patients. .

Just read the article in the link. The huge difference is that the UK isn't a third world country - yet. We do have the resources to completely separate different services and for there to be minimal impact on each other.

When I had a heart attack, I was taken straight by ambulance to hospital, which reversed into the cath lab, where a stent was fitted. I didn't even go through any other part of the hospital. The recovery ward was also in the same building. There wasn't any opportunity for cross infection.

I'm not sure these short localised lckdowns work. I live in Stockport, an area of Greater Manchester which went into local lckdown measures ( no meeting other households at home or in our gardens but we could meet in restaurants and parks) for four weeks then the number of new cases went down so restrictions were lifted. Now cases have gone up and we are under 'enhanced' alert, whatever that means! We still follow the rule of six.

I wonder if the proposed two week national lockdowns ( schools and work places open but with pubs and restaurants only offering takeaway food and a 10 pm curfew) will work? To me, it's a better option for our economy than a return to a total lockdown.

I really would not like to have responsibility for making any such decisions at the moment!

£10000 fine for those caught breaking self isolation.

I wonder if this will deter Cummings?

It also occurs to me that the fine is so huge that it may have the effect of discouraging people to take a test, if they can’t afford not to work they certainly can’t afford to pay the fine.

Then what?

Scientific advise. These are the order of importance. Tbh I think most of us have already worked it out but just to reiterate.

Space. Face. Hands

Space is the most important factor, preferably Keep outdoors.

Wear a mask

Avoid touching shared surfaces and wash wash wash.

It appears nobody's thought it through. If people think that they could be fined, they won't come forward for tests, won't report their contacts and won't use the allegedly world-beating app.

Forget all the blame games about students and ethnic minorities, etc. One of the biggest problems at the moment is that only 20% (approximately) of people who should be self-isolating, even if they are identified as contacts, are doing so.

Some of them genuinely don't realise that it means absolutely no contacts and still nip out for shopping or to take the dog for a walk and some need to work for financial reasons. Some don't seem to think it matters and that attitude isn't helped by those who claim that Covid and flu are the same.

The government is aware of the problems, which is why it's offering £500 to self-isolate. However, it appears that people already have to be claiming benefits to claim that money. It won't deter the self-employed and those on zero hour contracts, who are the ones most likely to be refusing to self-isolate because they genuinely do need the income. Meanwhile, they'll carry on spreading.

Whitewavemark2

Scientific advise. These are the order of importance. Tbh I think most of us have already worked it out but just to reiterate.

Space. Face. Hands

Space is the most important factor, preferably Keep outdoors.

Wear a mask

Avoid touching shared surfaces and wash wash wash.

Space is the most important factor, preferably Keep outdoors.

How do the 8 million school pupils and their teachers do that?

School attendance is important, so I hope somebody remembers to tell the coronavirus cells to take time out and not spread in schools.

Whitewavemark2

It also occurs to me that the fine is so huge that it may have the effect of discouraging people to take a test, if they can’t afford not to work they certainly can’t afford to pay the fine.

Then what?

I believe there is to be government help given to those on low incomes that have to self-isolate.

I also believe that the police and other authorities need to take a very tough line with those who flout the restrictions. With the "nutcase protesters" in Trafalgar Square yesterday riot police should have been used to very forcibly break up that so-called demonstration.

Those people were without a doubt there to cause maximum disruption and nothing else. Therefore in my view, the police were entitled to "disrupt them" with whatever measures that they deemed as necessary to as quickly as was possible restore respect for the emergency legislation and the health safety of all others in the vicinity.

I will do what is asked of me but I am uncomfortable with it. Shops boarded up, too many working from home so the high street is suffering, cancer treatments postponed, children prevented from seeing their friends and family, high unemployment. Is this what living is going to be like? Existing. Why can't you get to see a doctor? Are they paid still, their colleagues in the NHS are working to the point of exhaustion, it isn't fair, if not in surgery they should be in the hospitals. Everyone has to pull together. It's not right that those on the highest incomes continue to be paid whilst other's on minimum wage in essential jobs slog on. I can see one of my grandchikdren struggling, he's lost his job and no prospect of another, how many in that position?. I have asked myself if protecting me is worth it when it's such a high cost for others. The answer morally to me is no.

growstuff

Whitewavemark2

Scientific advise. These are the order of importance. Tbh I think most of us have already worked it out but just to reiterate.

Space. Face. Hands

Space is the most important factor, preferably Keep outdoors.

Wear a mask

Avoid touching shared surfaces and wash wash wash.

Space is the most important factor, preferably Keep outdoors.

How do the 8 million school pupils and their teachers do that?

School attendance is important, so I hope somebody remembers to tell the coronavirus cells to take time out and not spread in schools.

God knows!

Grandad1943

Whitewavemark2

It also occurs to me that the fine is so huge that it may have the effect of discouraging people to take a test, if they can’t afford not to work they certainly can’t afford to pay the fine.

Then what?

I believe there is to be government help given to those on low incomes that have to self-isolate.

I also believe that the police and other authorities need to take a very tough line with those who flout the restrictions. With the "nutcase protesters" in Trafalgar Square yesterday riot police should have been used to very forcibly break up that so-called demonstration.

Those people were without a doubt there to cause maximum disruption and nothing else. Therefore in my view, the police were entitled to "disrupt them" with whatever measures that they deemed as necessary to as quickly as was possible restore respect for the emergency legislation and the health safety of all others in the vicinity.

Take strong action with Cummings would have sent a clear message.

I agree that strong action with Cummings would have sent a very clear message at the start of this crisis.

The problem is now having " let the genie out of the bottle" too early getting it back in again will take very tough action indeed.

Grandad1943

Whitewavemark2

It also occurs to me that the fine is so huge that it may have the effect of discouraging people to take a test, if they can’t afford not to work they certainly can’t afford to pay the fine.

Then what?

I believe there is to be government help given to those on low incomes that have to self-isolate.

I also believe that the police and other authorities need to take a very tough line with those who flout the restrictions. With the "nutcase protesters" in Trafalgar Square yesterday riot police should have been used to very forcibly break up that so-called demonstration.

Those people were without a doubt there to cause maximum disruption and nothing else. Therefore in my view, the police were entitled to "disrupt them" with whatever measures that they deemed as necessary to as quickly as was possible restore respect for the emergency legislation and the health safety of all others in the vicinity.

I've looked into this government help. The details still aren't clear, but it appears £500 will be paid after the end of two weeks to people already on benefits, who have self-isolated. Goodness knows how it will be monitored, but the real problem is that most of those needing help won't be eligible. The lowest paid don't have two weeks' savings for day-to-day essentials and bills either.

There are already three million low paid self-employed who haven't been eligible for any help since the beginning of the pandemic. Most of them aren't eligible to claim benefits, so won't be eligible for this latest scheme. I'm afraid it's a smokescreen, but it makes a good headline to those who don't understand benefits.

Sparkling

I will do what is asked of me but I am uncomfortable with it. Shops boarded up, too many working from home so the high street is suffering, cancer treatments postponed, children prevented from seeing their friends and family, high unemployment. Is this what living is going to be like? Existing. Why can't you get to see a doctor? Are they paid still, their colleagues in the NHS are working to the point of exhaustion, it isn't fair, if not in surgery they should be in the hospitals. Everyone has to pull together. It's not right that those on the highest incomes continue to be paid whilst other's on minimum wage in essential jobs slog on. I can see one of my grandchikdren struggling, he's lost his job and no prospect of another, how many in that position?. I have asked myself if protecting me is worth it when it's such a high cost for others. The answer morally to me is no.

The only hope is for people to do their bit rather than flouting the rules all the time. Pretending it's all gone away and life can go back to normal is what's caused this spike. Nobody's saying that schools, healthcare and jobs, etc aren't important, but just carrying on isn't the answer and will just mean it all carries on for even longer.