Is there a secret opposition (or where is Keir?)

Yes I think so too trisher Should stand up for Labour values.

I think he is trying to take ground that the tories have traditionally considered theirs. The problem is that in doing so he is subverting Labour values. The issue of the behaviour of British troops abroad was a lost opportunity to provide a real traditional human rights statement which would have shown his commitment. It was a chance to speak out and he lost it.

Do you think StRmer is too cautious?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/30/labour-britain-braver-keir-starmer-party-social-economic-change?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&fbclid=IwAR0kZEf52S1J06JEDgqeJQljC4_W1pYHjaRgEXoFN-TJG44QHOjDgxSCzo4

Oh dear growstuff are you being the pencil monitor again??
There isn’t much to be said to the OP, Gavin W was speaking about universities in Parliament either yesterday or today,
And Keir Starmer can’t be shouting about everything all the time.
Individual Universities have to take responsibility for the welfare of their students, some Unis are doing better than others it would seem.

Yes growstuff you are correct, she stepped down from being an ‘indie’ last year.
I was pointing out that the money was for a year and not a term as stated, Uni fees are horrendous, but not that horrendous.

Do you have a contribution to the topic?

So where's the reference to Justine Green?

Upthread.

lemongrove

It’s Justine Greening, not Green or Greener, and she is a disaffected Conservative now standing as an Indie because she disagreed with Brexit.
She was the minister of women and equalities and was the daft person who wanted to change the rules on transgender by making it all self ID instead of the sensible rules already in place.She seemed to think because she is gay she knows best about the subject, women who protested were met with arrogance from her.

Who said anything about Justine Green or Greener?

Kate Green is a different person.

lemongrove

It’s Justine Greening, not Green or Greener, and she is a disaffected Conservative now standing as an Indie because she disagreed with Brexit.
She was the minister of women and equalities and was the daft person who wanted to change the rules on transgender by making it all self ID instead of the sensible rules already in place.She seemed to think because she is gay she knows best about the subject, women who protested were met with arrogance from her.

Justine Greening isn't an MP any more.

lemongrove

It’s £9,000 per annum not term, for Uni fees.

It's £9,250 a year.

It’s £9,000 per annum not term, for Uni fees.

It’s Justine Greening, not Green or Greener, and she is a disaffected Conservative now standing as an Indie because she disagreed with Brexit.
She was the minister of women and equalities and was the daft person who wanted to change the rules on transgender by making it all self ID instead of the sensible rules already in place.She seemed to think because she is gay she knows best about the subject, women who protested were met with arrogance from her.

PS. The promise to abolish tuition fees was, IMO, a stupid thing to do. It immediately alienates all the people who don't go to university and those who have already paid fees and are in the process of paying them back. I would rather see investment in quality apprenticeship, reversal of the cuts to schools in deprived areas and restoration of the EMA, introduction of free school travel for 16-18 year olds and grants to ensure that all people in education have decent digital access.

trisher

It also says there that he supports the abolition of University tuition fees, so you would imagine that he would be out there pointing out the injustice of taking £9000 a term off someone insisting they attend Uni, then locking them up and providing only on-line tuition, But he seems to be strangely quiet.

As we have said there is no point in launching anything until post covid and Brexit.

Starmer is known for his patience and tactical expertise.

trisher

It also says there that he supports the abolition of University tuition fees, so you would imagine that he would be out there pointing out the injustice of taking £9000 a term off someone insisting they attend Uni, then locking them up and providing only on-line tuition, But he seems to be strangely quiet.

No, I wouldn't expect it all. I can see from GN and other social media that there are many people who couldn't care less about students.

In fact, Kate Green has written to Gavin Williamson about it. She would make a far better Education Secretary than Gavin Williamson and knows more about education and young people than probably any other MP. Starmer has delegated to her, which seems a sensible thing to do.

It also says there that he supports the abolition of University tuition fees, so you would imagine that he would be out there pointing out the injustice of taking £9000 a term off someone insisting they attend Uni, then locking them up and providing only on-line tuition, But he seems to be strangely quiet.

Here’s a link to an informative article about Keir Starmer, clearly showing his socialist principles by the human rights' causes he champions.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keir_Starmer

Under the section entitled Awards and Honours, we read of his preference for people not to use the title 'Sir'.

They probably did vote Labour. It was the older voters who deserted Labour. Labour has a problem with them because they tend to be socially conservative and support Brexit. If Labour panders to them, they won't pick up the younger voters.

I'm sure Labour strategists have already looked at a map and know they have to gain at least 100 seats in the next election and know where they are. It's all very well appealing to voters in places like Liverpool, Manchester and London, but they will almost certainly be Labour anyway. It wouldn't make any difference if even 100% in those cities voted Labour.

I suspect appealing to the "red wall" voters is why Starmer's last two broadcasts have concentrated on patriotism and his own background. He can't make any announcements about the economy until he knows what the Conservatives intend to do. The Conservatives have to make good their promise to "level up", but I think after Brexit that's going to be impossible and I hope Labour attacks them then.

Is concentrating on the young such a good idea. Corbyn did this, even turned up at Glastonbury. What happened to all
The young votes come the elections ?

growstuff

trisher

As for the points ahead race if that is all opposition is about they may as well just sit tight then and keep quiet, because only very very committed Boris supporters are still with him. I always thought an opposition suggested things that could be done though and had real policies- you know socialist ones! When the system is failing they should be pointing out what's really wrong with it.

My hunch is that Starmer is waiting until Brexit happens because we're going to be in a different ball park.

Brexit in itself will no longer be an issue, although how the Conservatives manage the aftermath will be. A lot of former Labour voters in the "red wall" constituencies voted Brexit and fell for "getting Brexit done" - who knows how their views might change when it becomes a reality? We still don't know what the Conservatives' agenda for the post Brexit/Covid economy is.

As ever, I could be wrong.

No I don’t think you are wrong, that’s what I have been thinking for a while now.

It isn’t the time to launch policies as it would get drowned out by the noise from Covid and after Christmas Brexit.

trisher

As for the points ahead race if that is all opposition is about they may as well just sit tight then and keep quiet, because only very very committed Boris supporters are still with him. I always thought an opposition suggested things that could be done though and had real policies- you know socialist ones! When the system is failing they should be pointing out what's really wrong with it.

My hunch is that Starmer is waiting until Brexit happens because we're going to be in a different ball park.

Brexit in itself will no longer be an issue, although how the Conservatives manage the aftermath will be. A lot of former Labour voters in the "red wall" constituencies voted Brexit and fell for "getting Brexit done" - who knows how their views might change when it becomes a reality? We still don't know what the Conservatives' agenda for the post Brexit/Covid economy is.

As ever, I could be wrong.

I agree with you about Greening. She was the best Education Secretary for a long time, which was why she wasn't allowed to get her own way. She did/does actually care about education.

As for the points ahead race if that is all opposition is about they may as well just sit tight then and keep quiet, because only very very committed Boris supporters are still with him. I always thought an opposition suggested things that could be done though and had real policies- you know socialist ones! When the system is failing they should be pointing out what's really wrong with it.

What was interesting about Justine Greener was her discussion of the fee situation and if this was the best way to fund higher education. Honestly if I hadn't known she was a Conservative I might have mistaken her for Labour. Fees once being a real topic of discussion for them.