Nicola Sturgeon upholding the rules

Sorry, I should have checked as I changed that somewhat and the grammar doesn't make sense.

However, the lands were previously Aboriginal or Native American homelands, those people then being displaced in turn.

25Avalon

I didn’t realise until recently just how badly Scots were treated during the clearances. Not only were their homes stolen by pompous rich Englishmen but they were sold as bonded servants and the conditions on the ships were worse than on slave ships. It was a shocking read.
I refer to myself as a sassenach because I don’t feel superior.

Then, of course, those sent out to the colonies, worked very hard and eventually did very well, many becoming landowners themselves. Well done, poor Scottish crofters.

However, the lands were previously Aboriginal or Native American homelands who were then displaced.

Pompous rich Englishmen also had a complete disregard for their own fellow English citizens. Their European counterparts were pretty much the same having travelled around parts of Mexico and South America, I experienced a palpable outrage against the Spanish in how they treated the indigenous populations and that was further back in time. Of course you can apply that to many European countries, "colonialism is us" was omnipresent in Europe for centuries.

What I object to is an assertion that's come across from time to time that here in England there is some cloud of nostalgia that wraps up a fair percentage of the population. A population that spends much of it's time ruminating for the bygone days of Empire, whilst slurping away on Brown Windsor Soup. When such sentiments are expressed, I tend to think "have you actually been down here?"

Unfortunately there are always going to be a few dinosaurs and we are shaped by had experiences, but is it fair to judge a whole nation by a minority ignorance? One of my husband's closest pals is Scottish and they have had an enduring friendship of over 50 years. Met at work and friend lived down here in England for quite a few decades. Friend invited my husband back to stay with his family in Scotland and that was the first of a few visits for him. They were all very welcoming and as were all his circle, except for one!. In a bar one evening, husband's friend was approached by someone he knew he introduced my husband with a "this is x from London" that person without even waiting for a response, just turned on his heel and went. When this came up in conversation, I asked my husband how he felt. He just said "oh there's always one, but I didn't let one bad experience taint my overall positive impression of everyone else I met whilst I was up there, friend felt much worse about it than I did he was highly embarrassed, but he shouldn't have been" Nevertheless, it would be hard to get your head around how anyone would just walk away from someone they'd never met by virtue of the fact of where they came from. Presumably in their eyes anyone English undergoes a backward metamorphosis into Oliver Cromwell/Edward 1 and any other English person/s who carried out atrocities over the centuries.

However, going back to the whole superiority English complex, I have no doubt it does exist, it was ever present with my late father in law who was an absolute shocker of man in that respect. Endless, diatribes over far too frequent Sunday lunches twice a month visits, about the French which always pissed me off have a lot of family there, spent a lot of time with French people when I was with my ex husband as he was of French extraction plus have been to France umpteen times. We went annually when our children were young. Father in law had never ever been there, just kept coming out with negative assertions about them. The fact of the matter was that he hadn't been anywhere outside England other than Scotland and Ireland. My husband told me when they were up in Scotland golfing and about to leave he, father in law, said in a loud voice in the hotel foyer when the receptionist asked them about their journey "yes going back to London and civilization" . I think my husband dragged him out to the car with a "do you have to be quite so embarrassing" Yes an appalling attitude and certainly not one I was brought up with. My last holiday with my parents as a teenager was up to Scotland, and although I was only half listening, my father, being an avid history buff took great pains to give us the Scottish experience, no stone was left unturned, spent most of the time in the car, listening to dad droaning on giving us lots of interesting facts about William Wallace, Robert the Bruce, Mary Queen of Scots. etc. etc. but I think what I did take from that was, this was a separate country, with a language, culture of their own. Perhaps my dad was keen to point that out because, he himself being only part English was less one dimensional than say late father in law and more aware of identity. I increasingly found myself not looking forward to visiting late parents in law simply because of f-i-law's views, I remember saying to my husband before any visit, I suppose your father will be coming out with his usual crap and bollocks nonsense, he represented no one else in the family and there was much eye rolling, tongue biting when he started, but then he'd be well over a 100 if he were still around and possibly was of his time coupled with the fact that he had had a very narrow upbringing and life! I haven't met anyone quite like him since. Thank God!

Depends what you read 25Avalon and where you read it. There is a myriad of sources and some excellent historians have written very interesting books. It's a complex area.
Slavery by any other name was around in Scotland for centuries. I remember being shocked hearing about it at school. Indentured service was actually a good way out for ancestors of mine. After crops failed it was a way of working that led after a number of years to them being given land of their own. As I said, a large complex area.

I didn’t realise until recently just how badly Scots were treated during the clearances. Not only were their homes stolen by pompous rich Englishmen but they were sold as bonded servants and the conditions on the ships were worse than on slave ships. It was a shocking read.
I refer to myself as a sassenach because I don’t feel superior.

paddyanne

Furret I dont think I'm the voice of Scotland,
amongst my circle are migrants from Italy,Slovenia,Holland,India ,Pakistan the Phillipines Ireland and yes England.Its noticeable that its only some ..not all the English who constantly talk Scotland down.the too wee ,too poor ,too stupid attitude.I've seen it on here too.
.Its an arrogant inbred superiority...that isn't justified.

I wasn’t referring to you.

Alegrias re read paddyann's last post.

Oh, gullible, haven't heard that one for a while. Been looking in the Big Book of Unionist Insults Jane10?

BTW, it wasn't paddyanne who referred to a certain poster, do keep up.

Alegrias I doubt its you that paddyann was referring to!

For all you fans of Nicola based on what you may have read or heard on the news, I've just read that she has 14 full time spin doctors costing the Scottish tax payer more than £1,000,000 a year. One of them has just been given a pay rise of £20,000. With that kind of spinning going on no wonder the gullible are fooled.
Meanwhile, looks like her and her husband are going to need all the spin they can get. Interesting times...

I've met one person from Glasgow who I thought was speaking a foreign language (we were abroad at the time) but I do have friends from Glasgow whom I would term 'rather posh'.
It took me a long time to understand my friend from Edinburgh as she speaks with rather a soft drawl.

As I've never been to Scotland I can only make my judgement about accents on the Scots who live in the RUK or overseas - who never seem to lose their accents.

I have only been to Scotland once (Edinburgh) I felt comfortable and welcome.

We do have a friend from Glasgow who after several pints we cannot understand, his answer is after several pints he cannot understand us either.

paddyanne I think I'm that certain person. I've been promoted. ?

Furret I dont think I'm the voice of Scotland,
amongst my circle are migrants from Italy,Slovenia,Holland,India ,Pakistan the Phillipines Ireland and yes England.Its noticeable that its only some ..not all the English who constantly talk Scotland down.the too wee ,too poor ,too stupid attitude.I've seen it on here too.
.Its an arrogant inbred superiority...that isn't justified.

I don't even think of people as being English or Scottish really. Maybe because Edinburgh is a bit more cosmopolitan (up to a point!) what with all the tourists etc? I'm often asked if I'm English but I tend to answer, 'No I'm just posh!'

??

It is indeed human nature Furret and I can only speak of my own experiences of findings amongst other expats in other countries and although not all, many who moaned the most, praising the English way of how things should be done and refused to integrate were English which did make me wonder why they ever left.

DD2 has travelled and worked worldwide, often called Jock in an endearing manner. ?

Unless you have lived all over Scotland SueDonim your accounts of living in Scotland and how we all think are totally meaningless as you are in no position to be the voice of Scotland adding insults to a whole nation to boot

Neither has another certain person the right to think she is the ‘voice of Scotland’ either. There are many different attitudes to the English in Scotland just as there are many different ones in England towards migrants.

That is human nature.

Alegrias

Crikey

Yes, dear. I bite back.

Unless you have lived all over Scotland SueDonim your accounts of living in Scotland and how we all think are totally meaningless as you are in no position to be the voice of Scotland adding insults to a whole nation to boot.

You don’t have to any further than this forum to discover posters who have moved here from England having a moan about their country and have happily lived here for many years.

To add; I lived in France for many years but refused to join any of the many ex pats clubs with mainly an English membership happily living in their small enclave running anything French verbally to the ground. Being Scottish didn’t always guarantee a warm welcome. Thankfully we were warmly welcomed by our French neighbours.

Crikey

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Suedonim asked "Which nations do like being patronised?" to which the reply must be another question "Which nations do a lot of patronising?"

LadyH talks about unthinking slights in her rather good post. We’ve been putting up with that for quite a long time, let’s just take some examples of things that have been said in this thread by SueDonim and Furret. I'm naming these posters so I don't get accused of being sneaky.

same tight circle of friends he had (….) some of whom are ardent SNP supporters Replace “ardent SNP Supporters” with e.g. “People of colour”, and try to imagine if that would be acceptable.

Sadly, not all Scots are as open-minded as his friends Ditto, with “Scots”

I don’t think there’s an equivalence between a Scot in England and vice versa. I’m not even sure what this implies, but I don't think its good.

Actually SD that was what I was wondering. That might explain a lot. I think that was a veiled attempt to say I was making things up.

If only that were true, about Scots not hating the English. What, all Scots?

There are old wounds, old hostilities and grievances still held against ‘The English". Nope, really there aren’t.

anti-English feelings especially those recently roused by the last independence referendum. Nope, misunderstood the situation entirely.

I hope people will read LadyH’s and Elegran’s posts and consider that a person’s attitude will affect how they see the world around them. There is a dwindling band of misguided folk in Scotland who think the English are the cause of all our problems. They are the minority by far, but like in any country, if you expect to find them, you will. If anyone would now like to pile in and tell me that I’m paranoid, blaming the English, whatever, then fill your boots.

We moved a lot but not again since we came here.