Nicola Sturgeon upholding the rules

As a Scot living in England I can understand the strong feelings re independence. I can also understand anti-English feelings especially those recently roused by the last independence referendum.

When I voiced my support for a YES vote, I was shocked and surprised by so many who trotted out not just the old clichés eg Scotland couldn’t survive on her own etc. and those who seemed to think that Scotland was an inferior partner in the Union.

There are old wounds, old hostilities and grievances still held against ‘The English’ which it is probably difficult to understand.

Illte I believe that the Shetlands want to have some degree of autonomy because they don't think Holyrood gives them enough freedom to manage their own affairs. They don't want to be part of Scotland at all, independent or not. One model I saw being discussed was that they become a bit like Jersey and other Channel Isles, i.e. a Crown Dependency. If its what the people there want, to has to be given due consideration.

There's a belief that Scotland would suffer because of the lack of oil money generated by Shetland, but the oil is running out and so we'd have to find an alternative anyway.

If anyone knows more than me about this I'm happy to be corrected.

Goodness me, Paddyanne, your true colours are showing. I doubt any decent person would want to paint their house in them.

Illte I’ve read analyses that say reunification is almost inevitable as more and more people in NI have personal knowledge or experience of the ‘Troubles’. What might affect this (either way) is how Brexit works out for NI and the RoI. Interesting times

Oh TerriBull, don't get me started on the Reformation

Thank you Alegrias, always happy for a history lesson, I'd heard of the Darien Gap that separates central America from South America, a dangerous place by all accounts, but didn't know about Scottish involvement, I'll have to read up on that Alas! spent too long on the Tudors when I was at school, catholic education back then was somewhat reformation obsessed! Anyway never too late to learn something new

Worry not about whether we are better at football or not, couldn't care less me, but the men in my family seem to think it's somehow life changing as to how their team perform and of course how England performs destined to disappoint I'd say always waiting for that 1966 moment again

I've thought for ages that Ireland should be reunited, lemongrove. Although I think the majority in Northern Ireland would disagree.

Can I ask how pro-Scottish independence posters view the Shetlands call for their own independence. They clearly don't want to be part of an independent Scotland.

Have there been any discussion about their stand?

Wanting independence is fine, I want it along with millions of others from the EU.If it happens then so be it, although it will be sad as I think England Scotland, Wales, are better together as one island.I think Ireland should be united with NI as they will be better together in the future, but only if more people want it than don’t.
What is disgraceful though, is any anti-English rhetoric on here, and I have heard plenty on GN over the years.

I’m new-ish TerriBull, so I don’t know everybody’s history on GN. I can only control my own words, others may have a different view. By the way, my DNA shows my ancestors came here just after the Ice Age but my English-born husband came here 50 years ago. We’ll both be equally Scots in the future, I hope.

Let’s keep on with a history lesson I read that the stereotype of Scots being mean came about because James the VI & I gave all his Scottish followers positions at court above his English supporters. England and Scotland were still separate countries after the Union of the Crowns, but joined in the current political union in 1707 after the Darien Disaster at the end of the 17th Century left us destitute. Scotland was sold down the river for reward by a group of Scottish aristocrats, against the wishes of most of the people. On the day the Act of Union came into force, the bells of St Giles in Edinburgh played the tune "Why am I so Sad on my Wedding Day?" We’ve never quite got over it.

And we can’t forgive you for being better at football than us.

"I forgive her absolutely for her go home English comment" Very magnanimous but it's not really up to you to forgive an insulting remark that isn't directed at you is it Maizie?

Alegrias, I don't know if you are new, but you present a reasoned argument without resorting to anti English rhetoric. With that in mind, I'm going to put my hands up and say I made a comment on the other thread about the Scottish MP, which some deemed offensive, it was a knee jerk reaction to what I see on here as frequent assertions that bad things only go one way. I can see it was overly flippant about a serious subject and if I offended anyone I aplogise. I confess I had you in mind Paddyanne, because to me and many others here, in spite of you protesting otherwise, your posts continually point to a palpable dislike of the English. This came across loud and clear when you started a thread a while ago apropos of a horrible attack on two gay women in London, with a "what on earth's going on down south" I'm afraid that stuck with me because it was skewed in such a way as to suggest that only vile things happen in England. I was glad to see some of your Scottish compatriots called you out on that at the time.

I can't speak for Sue Donim but living where I do I'm surrounded by people who come come from somewhere else other than England, one of them Scottish, what a horrible world it would be if whenever such a person were to refer to their parent country in a misty eyed way and were told "why don't you go back there then". My heritage is only half English, my family come from all over the place, what I do know from my father and his siblings, even back then, you can straddle two cultures. My first husband was also from overseas, and whilst he like many of my family had made their home in England, incomers often carry an ache in their heart for the place they came from, maybe it's just nostalgia. From my experience they didn't actually want to go back to that place, because nothing is ever the same as anyone remembers, but at the same time most never cast off those formative memories and such yearnings are often part of the human condition.

I can completely understand the quest for Scottish independence and as an English person, I can say for myself at least, it's not my argument so I try not to keep out of it. What does piss me off is all the wrongs of history parceled up and thrown at us by the most vociferous of Scottish nationalists as if we are each responsible for all the ills that have been levied at Scotland from centuries ago and expecting eternal mea culpas. As I understand it, Scotland was a separate country until Elizabeth 1st died childless so we got your King James V1 who became James 1st, I don't suppose the population of England were ever consulted about that, like with everything else, the population had no say in anything. He was a descendent of Henry V111's sister, Margaret Tudor so I imagine the closest connection and so the unification came about.

Oh dear paddyanne.

Right, here's my preachy take on independence, then I'm off for my lunch.

I firmly believe in independence, and in an open and welcoming country where people feel at home, wherever they were born. I sincerely hope the SNP don't tear themselves apart Jane10 because they are the best hope we have right now of getting independence. But there are other political parties who support independence. The Greens for instance. There was a "Labour voters for Indy" movement during the referendum. As most people on here seem to grasp, wanting independence doesn't mean hating anybody, it means standing on our own 2 feet.

Frank, get the door

Nowt (sp)

I do find it very puzzling that people can live here for supposedly 40 years and still think the WM government is whats best for us

It may be puzzling to you, paddyanne but it wasn't puzzling to the majority who voted to remain part of the United Kingdom.

There's nowr so odd as folk, is there!

I do not have a loathing of "the " English ,whoever they are.I do find it very puzzling that people can live here for supposedly 40 years and still think the WM government is whats best for us .Or the really stupid "lose her heritage" remark.That was as Janey Godley would say a belter !! That is the Brexit Blue passport argument all over again.So SD an the almost three quarters of a million English born Scots will vote to stop Indpenednece ....and keep their English passports Hadn't heard thelost heritage arguement before.

Alegrias Well if anyone is unhappy here I would suggest they head back to where their heart is ,I'm not ANTI English but SD's remarks are those of ex pats on the costas ,who want Full English in pubs draped in Union flags and a say on Brexit when they dont live here,the ones who dont want foreigners in England while they sun themselves in Spain .I had thought she was above that .My apologies for any offence .I will soundly slap my wrist

I agree completely terribull ??

It doesn't really matter what the definition of "pearl clutching" actually means though does it? The real point is that a poster has suggested that any English person, who is living in Scotland and is unhappy with the events taking place there, should "go home". You can call it anything you like but what it actually is, is racism. Hiding it behind colloquialisms doesn't alter what it really is.

"Rarely rises to the bait" Really!!! have you read the tidal wave of anti English sentiments that have make up a fair amount of Paddyann's posts, nuanced they aren't. Whilst she may protest that she doesn't have a problem with the English per se, the remark that she made to Sue Donim something along the lines of "you can always go back to England" speaks volumes. "Pearl clutching" such a hackneyed load of old bollocks of an expression if ever there was one

I wouldn't be quite so optimistic Alegrias. English readers may not know about the schism currently at risk of tearing the SNP apart. Very smelly stuff going on around the parliamentary enquiry into the Scottish governments handling of the Salmond affair. Scotland is a very small world and Edinburgh even more so. People talk. Among other things SNP's own MP Kenny McAskill has revealed a WhatsApp conversation of considerable embarrassment to Murrell (Nicola's husband and CEO of SNP party). Salmond is going to court to secure the release of papers relating into the inquiry. Meanwhile this cost Scottish taxpayers £500,000+.
Shakespeare said it all re Denmark which equally applies to Scotland - 'Something rotten...!'

Chewbacca

^I forgive her absolutely for her 'English go home' comment^

But if you substituted the word "English" for "African" or "Indian" or any other nationality, would that still be forgivable?

No, it is not acceptable.

Agreeing that independence for Scotland could have its merits is one thing but telling people of other nationalities, whether they be African, Indian, Australian, English or Welsh, that they should go back to their homeland smacks of racism.

I agree with your definition of pearl clutching, Alegrias. I would never use it to describe a lost argument.

Yes Algegrias it does mean that, but is used as a bit of an insult on forums as well.Best to ignore it.

Ah yes, another little GN device that newcomers don't know about?

The rest of the world think that "Pearl clutching" means outrage or overly dramatic protest, especially from a woman.

The phrase ‘pearl clutching’ is used when a poster has lost the argument.

Pearl clutching MaizieD. I've heard it all now. I'll put up with robust debate, but not discrimination.

I forgive her absolutely for her 'English go home' comment

But if you substituted the word "English" for "African" or "Indian" or any other nationality, would that still be forgivable?