McCluskey really wants to ensure Labour will never be electable !

'£££3 billion' should be '££££ billion'

trisher did the survey discuss the cost of the policies and how they would be financed? There are many things I would like the government, any government, to do, but I am also aware that they would cost £££s billions and paying for them would involve at least doubling income tax basic rate. Soaking the rich would not work one, there are not enough of them and two they can afford to take themselves and their millions to a country with lower taxes.

We would all like the current government to do all kinds of things, reintroduce full furlough support etc etc, but current support is dependent on us borrowing £££3 billions. Fortunately interest rates at present are vanishingly low, as anyone with savings knows, and our economy and our economy is seen as strong, but borrow too much, keep more of the economy shutdown and international borrowers will start down grading our bonds and the interest rates we will then have to pay could increase 10 fold. Then we really would be in trouble. A bit like Greece after the 2008 financial crisis.

biba70 Corbyn never made PM did he?
MaizieD I think charm probably came in with Blair (although you coud argue that Thatcher was groomed to have some). For PMs after Blair I would say.
Gordon Brown-0% charm
David Cameron 75% charm
Theresa May 30%charm
Boris Johnson 95% charm
I don't by the way think Boris is charming just that he has a certain quality which attracts people and which in his case compensated for all his inadequacies. I think it's like a quality some sales people have. The ability to make people believe you.

Andy Burnham and the other northern mayors seemed to be behaving like a real opposition in their lunchtime press conference.
Actually questioning the Government and saying that he would stand up for low paid workers, and not accept that the 66% wage subsidy is "non negotiable", but to ask why if 80% was the right thing to do in March, it is not right now.

I apologise in advance if Keir Starmer has spoken on this issue already, but I have not heard if he has said anything about it.

Corbyn hardly had 'charm' did he? (and I was never anti Corbyn either, but charm?).

Well at this stage, I say s*d charm- give me experience, dedication, intelligence, clarity of mind and so much more.

Surely you wouldn't scupper the Party and the country with it (because that will be the result at this rate) because of his perceived 'lack of charm'. Really ?!?

That's interesting, trisher. I'm trying to assess 'PMs I have known and I really can't think of many who had charm.

I was thinking about the comparisons between Blair and Starmer and much as I dislike Blair now, he did, in the beginning, exhibit 2 qualities which Starmer is sadly lacking-charm and conviction. Blair always spoke out about the LP he believed in, and at the time there were many who were for keeping Clause 4, but he resolutely opposed it and took the party with him. Starmer just procrastinates. Blair also had a considerable amount of charm. I suspect that charm is responsible for the success of quite a few PMs- You can list the ones that had it and the ones who hadn't. Gordon Brown for example a very sincere and dedicated man but his image was completely lacking charm. Boris has charm but I don't think Starmer has and the big problem is I can't think of anyone in the LP who has any whereas Rishi Sunak has plenty of it.

Yes- I could understand how many people wanted 'their Sovereignty back' - but I truly cannot understand how, some of these people, now fully aware that both NHS and our agriculture will be sold down the river to the USA- still support this Governement. Also now that it must be clear to them, that to allow this to happen, Johnson, Cummings and ERG have to silence any opposition by our own representatives, the veryrepresentatives we have elected.

It is just beyond comprehension. And to know that this will be allowed to happen because of division in the LP and opposition to Starmer, even more so.

growstuff

Good post GillT57. In the long term, this government won't be remembered for its incompetence over Covid, but its dismantling of democracy .. and we haven't even got to the damage which will be caused by Brexit.

I'm desperately worried about this and so despairing when people dismiss our fears as nonsense.

It bothers me that they dismiss our fears not because they have any expertise in the subject but because they either don't understand how our democracy should work, or they don't really care that it's being dismantled.

Good post GillT57. In the long term, this government won't be remembered for its incompetence over Covid, but its dismantling of democracy .. and we haven't even got to the damage which will be caused by Brexit.

GillT57 - I agree with your post at 17.06 today, including your suggestion that the country is being gaslighted.
I do see Cummings as a key player and find it abhorrent that an unelected SPAD seems to have such influence and power. He wants to dismantle the civil service, to destroy the structures our democracy depends on.
Access to legal aid is vanishingly rare and Johnson plans to reduce it further. How he plans to reduce the "left wing do gooder human rights lawyers" I've no idea. They are demolishing our democracy in plain sight.

The perception that Mc Cluskey and the Unions are holding the strings of the LP- by blackmail or any other way, like restricting finance- will make 'perceived economic competence' ring all the wrong bells!

I've posted about that several times, trisher. It was circulating after the 2017 general election. There was a vox pop video of it too. I got the impression that the reactions to it were more tribal than anything else. People approved of the policies, but from their reactions when they were told it was Labour policies I got the impression that, if they were tory voters, they would die rather than vote Labour.

I think that one of Labour's big problems is not so much its policies but its perceived economic competence; or rather, incompetence. No amount of costed manifestos will overcome that in a hurry. And, ironically, no amount of tory financial incompetence (have we heard even so much as a whiff of condemnation of their current money wasting botched crony contracts from tory supporters on here?) shifts the myth of tory economic competence...

And I'm afraid that 'competence' is Starmer's current USP...

It's here yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/12/labour-economic-policies-are-popular-so-why-arent-

M0nica I believe that there was some research conducted recently where people were presented with policies and asked their opinion on them. What resulted was that most of the policies they liked were in fact those of the LP only when the party was revealed did people change their minds. So it isn't the policies. Although I have noted that nobody has posted which LP policies Starmer actually supports (because no one knows)
I will see if I can find the research.

What is the point of a political party that adopts policies that the majority of voters do not want. It is fine to be a party purist devoted to The true and honest party principle, whatever your political persuasion. Being a martyr to your cause is a great feeling, but wouldn't you really prefer to be in power and able to push forward some of your policies, even though you cannot have everything your way.

GillT57, good posts. While I supported the first lockdown absolutely I am less sure that we need such draconian measures again. Far better to return to some sort of normality. I would go so far as to say we need it for the mental sanity of the nation of which political debate is a big part. I agree with you on the gaslighting and I have heard other political people term it so. We are being silenced and disenfranchised in my view. We need to make the mass of people of all ages recognise that this virus is deadly and is not going away and we need to restart normal life BUT with a sensible approach. That leadership is lacking with BJ.

That's interesting, *GillT57.
Do you think it is all part of a plan by Cummings? Do you think the PM and Cabinet are being manipulated too? Or we're just the idiots who are being sidetracked?

I think McCluskey is a blinkered dinosaur.

I seriously hope that Starmer can defeat the enemy within for as far as I can see, it is Labour with Starmer at the helm, or disaster for this country with the current Tory administration. To put it bluntly, I prefer the prospect of 'Tory lite' with Starmer in charge, than 'democracy lite' with the Tories. While we all witter on about whether a baby should be counted in a group of six, blame students for doing what youngsters are meant to do ie socialise, meet people, attend classes.......the Tories are dismantling democracy in plain sight. We are being gaslit.For those unaware of this term: Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation in which a person or a group covertly sows seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or group, making them question their own memory, perception, or judgment, often evoking in them cognitive dissonance and other changes

so fascism, racism, homophobia, and more - should not be challenged, and respected on par?

No propaganda should be taught in schools and healthy discussion should be encouraged without any pupil being condemned for differing views.

"Havn't the Government just banned any criticism of capitalism in schools"

I thought they had banned teaching material calling for an end to capitalism - just as no doubt Labour would want to ban any teaching material calling for an end to socialism

Not all union members vote Labour.

Is winning the next general election any use if all you have is a watered down Conservative party who won't commit to changing anything?

Why do you think they wouldn't change anything, trisher?
The alternative is to continue with the Tories/Cummings in power for even longer.

I prefer moderate to watered down.

Labour run in Momentum style was rejected and McClusky is becoming more of an obstruction than an aid to the possibility of a future Labour Government.
If he worked with, rather than against, the present leadership then they would achieve more.
Sometimes we have to compromise to get what we wish for.

I am, however, mildly disappointed in Starmer so far and expected more 'spark'.