Is there such a thing as historical, cultural trauma?

Some families disposesessed by Apartheid are now winning cases in getting retribution and their land back.

If historical cultural 'trauma' brings the chance of some financial remuneration, cynically I think, there will probably be a greater claim of it. My ancestors could have been nobbled by Vikings, for all I know, I don't expect any thing from Scandinavia.

Ah sure, it's good to be of Irish blood! We like a laugh.

Often time puts a different complexion on things. In the late 60’s one camera shop in Bath would not sell anything Japanese because of the inhuman way they treated their prisoners in the war. My DH’s uncle died at the hands of the Japanese at the age of 21 and is buried at Changi and yet we have a Japanese car. Sometimes we let go and sometimes we don’t. I’m not sure if we carry trauma or it is imposed on us.

Luckyoldbeethoven

It is isn't it Trisher, I look out for articles now and think it is amazing that parents and grandparents lives might affect us in ways that haven't been realised before.

Some posters are mentioning Irish history. My mother's family were Irish and I have some relatives who are descendants of emigrants to Canada fleeing the famine. I can see health patterns that are in common - autoimmune conditions such as arthritis and digestive issues. The latter would relate to having ancestors who had to survive on what was available and who would not have been able to eat rich food, especially later in life.

Or it could be simple genetics. Apparently people with Irish heritage are particularly susceptible to cystic fibrosis, ulcer colitis, type 1 diabetes, Crohn’s disease, celiac disease, haemochromatis (aka the Celtic Disease) and some liver conditions.

www.bionews.org.uk/page_92566

www.irishinbritain.org/cmsfiles/Publications/Factsheets/Haemochromatosis-The-Celtic-Disease.pdf

PS. None of my direct ancestors lost anybody in either world war.

Whitewavemark2

growstuff

I'm not sure that family trauma is so powerful as belonging to a group (nation or ethnic group) which has has been humiliated or defeated as a whole.

I'm English to the core, so I don't know what it's like to feel that I belong to a group which was subservient at some time in history (within the last 500 years anyway).

But you can surely empathise with folk who have those historical memories

Yes, of course. What I'm saying is that the defeat of a whole country or subjugation of an ethnic or religious group is more powerful and becomes embedded in collective culture, which can persist for generations.

growstuff

I'm not sure that family trauma is so powerful as belonging to a group (nation or ethnic group) which has has been humiliated or defeated as a whole.

I'm English to the core, so I don't know what it's like to feel that I belong to a group which was subservient at some time in history (within the last 500 years anyway).

But you can surely empathise with folk who have those historical memories

It is isn't it Trisher, I look out for articles now and think it is amazing that parents and grandparents lives might affect us in ways that haven't been realised before.

Some posters are mentioning Irish history. My mother's family were Irish and I have some relatives who are descendants of emigrants to Canada fleeing the famine. I can see health patterns that are in common - autoimmune conditions such as arthritis and digestive issues. The latter would relate to having ancestors who had to survive on what was available and who would not have been able to eat rich food, especially later in life.

Interesting point growstuff I do not feel 'proud' about being British..but that is not to say I don't value many things that are British and would do what I could to preserve them!

This is a really interesting discussion. I was even thinking about while doing housework.

I guess it's another aspect of patriotism. People don't think twice about saying they're proud to be British. If you ask them for reasons, they'll mention Britain's historical achievements, even though they weren't personally involved. The achievements have become part of our culture (failures tend to be airbrushed), so suffering any sort of injustice becomes part of other cultures and persists through generations.

I can absolutely understand that one's family history impacts on how you are today.

If current society still treats you as 'other' because of faith, skin colour, country of origin then I think those people/communities will hang on much longer to their history/culture and feel it to be very important to their individual identity.

It is important to me to keep the torch alight for my father and my grandmother's family. I use food and music to link me to my father's cultural heritage. My own DDs like the food and will explain historical facts to people who do not know and side with their paternal granddad's heritage in political debates. No idea if it will carry on with DGCs.

Thanks Luckyoldbeethoven that is so interesting.

Thank-you for those links I have looked at them but will have a better look over the week-end when I have more time.

Very Interesting.

Sorry, either I forgot or the second link didn't work! Here it is!

www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/07/parents-emotional-trauma-may-change-their-children-s-biology-studies-mice-show-how

For some time there has been understanding that generational trauma can be carried down to descendants. I believe it began with a study of Dutch people whose parents had lived through a time of extreme deprivation through WW2 and it was discovered that their bodies were adapted to famine conditions and that this was because of long term genetic responses. It's a new field of genetic studies called epigenetics. Here's a link which explains further:

www.nytimes.com/2018/01/31/science/dutch-famine-genes.html

And another link from a science based magazine which I found because some people like a science based explanation. If you Google intergenerational trauma or epigenetics, you will find lots of interesting information but probably the two articles above are a start!

No Irish ever comes out in me!! But then this almost miscellaneous lady was a G.Grandmother on my paternal side which were never part of my life and perhaps a bit sadly still aren't.

I think it can depend on whether things are discussed within a family or whether events are a bit airbrushed away in the interests of moving on. You can't keep on about the past, but on the other hand, perhaps you shouldn't completely let it go! It's a difficult balance and I'm not sure what the answer is.

sadly not. Scottish Ulster Unionists certainly not. Impossible to even discuss this.

The original poster has made an interesting question, and I also watched QT and listened to Bonnie Greer talk of how black people carry the trauma of slavery and that Jewish people carry the trauma of the Holocaust.
Is that the correct word to use that describes historical culture? It very well could be.

I was born of Irish parents that had come to London just before the second world war. There own parents and great grand parents had all been raised in Ireland. I had no real understanding of Irish being different from British until I was school age and had a better understanding of culture.
I am British and see myself as such however because of lots of Irish relatives and friends that my parents had there was always a culture of Ireland around us. Even being born British there was no chance of me escaping I had the "Irish Blood" as relatives liked to call it. It was all good though and
I never felt shame of my parents heritage.

To cut along story short about do we carry trauma? I think I do as my ancestors would have been Irish and so knowing about Irish History then I know how the country of Ireland became divided. As much as the people of Ireland want peace and it took a long time to get that peace treaty in some Irish peoples mind the blood that was shed and the martyrs of old Ireland will never be forgotten.
I still often listen to the Ballad of Kevin Barry an 18 year old
hung from the gallows 1st November 1920. He was hung by the British Government as he was with others and tried to attack a British army supply lorry.
I do have opinions on Irish Life and whilst British I cannot say through and through because sometimes the Irish still comes out in me.

I met some people when I was on a cruise who were American, but had escaped the war in Vietnam at the last minute. They took the cruise to revisit the country of their birth and early life. They didn’t really describe their experiences during the war, and so I’m unable to say if they are still traumatised, although I feel their experiences must have been terrifyingly traumatic.

Our friends in America who are Jewish, dislike (is hate too strong a word?) anything or anyone who is German. They say they will never set foot in Germany. To me this is trauma, but they are the children of the people who actually experienced being Jewish during WW2 and of course living in mainland Europe. Therefore I think trauma does pass down through the generations but I feel this will become less as more generations are born.

I too am English to the core, but I know may Grandfather left his small village to seek his fortune in Birmingham, then a growing industrial city, because he hated having to raise his cap to the Squire. Agricultural labours of that generation, mid 1850s, were certainly a subservient class, with no rights of employment or tenancy of their homes.

which is an irony for my family because we are predominantly Catholic.
Terribull that's interesting. My father's family took up the Baptist faith.

If I was Jewish I would constantly worry when I experienced anti-semitism. The veneer of civilisation is extremely thin, and never make the mistake that it couldn’t happen again!

The trauma of the holocaust casts a deep shadow.