Is there such a thing as historical, cultural trauma?

I agree with you about the EU and the European countries that were invaded during WW2 trisher.
I'm interested in the possibility of ancestry syndrome as a psychological concept. Of course we are affected by our family history. My ancestors on dad's side were agricultural workers, who came to the north west to work in the mills/mines as agricultural work in the south became less available. We have Scottish and Irish ancestry, as do so many of us. Our verbal family history told us that people worked very hard, money was always tight, if there was enough you were to save for the inevitable rainy day.
All of that seems fairly uncontroversial, as being influential in our politics, belief systems. What is maybe a bit more open to debate is how much of our beliefs and psychological make up is inherited. There seems to be a growing body of evidence that trauma is included in our DNA.

Yes, I'm sure that's right 'Trisher*, France and Germany always emphasise friendship and a desire not to be at war again. I think there is a more social democratic political outlook in the EU. When Macron says' We are one' in his speech to the French, I think to myself that I couldn't imagine Boris saying that or getting away with it!
Thanks for starting this thread, it's been fascinating.

I did wonder if one of the reasons other countries are more committed to the EU is because they share a history of occupation. Only Spain and Portugal escaped and they had their own problems.

It's a brave man or woman these days who would name national successes of the past because so often a past 'success' is built on the subjugation of some other person or nation!
I wish we could stop remembering WW2 but it was incredibly traumatic for those who went through it and for those tasked with reconstructing a devastated Europe hence the desire to remember.
"Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it".
The trouble is there are many pasts and many peoples and the Earth gets more crowded by the day.

I think it's quite realistic for trauma to pass on to the next generation in 2 ways. Learning behaviour that came due to trauma and biologically as a form of evolution, pronounced fight or flight response as one example.

So yes from me

Should cultures forget the successes of their past too? Or do you think history should be air-brushed? Does that mean that we should forget songs like "Rule Britannia" because Britain no longer rules the waves? Does that mean we can stop all the WW2 victory commemorations?

If we go back in in the history of our own families there will have been trauma. Tiny children working down mines and in the cotton mills, wars and invasions. If parents keep these things going it carries on for generation. We are not responsible for the past, we are where we are now. It's a problem if you make it so. You can't get even with the past deeds except by having a good life now. All this hysteria and soul searching is pointless, deal with the now, there are plenty of injustices going on.

Luckyoldbeethoven

growstuff I am Irish. If you have an Irish parent, the Irish state automatically grants you citizenship. Historically, that was because English interference in Irish economy, laws and life and so Irish people were forced to emigrate. So I can make any joke I like about being Irish and Irish people are known for having a great sense of humour often self deprecating.

You can. What I wrote was that I can't (and wouldn't).

Yes, of course there is. Intergenerational trauma is a real thing. It's been shown that trauma is passed through epigenetic influences to subsequent generations.

Ancestor syndrome

My husband is descended from French Huguenots on his mother's side and Sephardic Jews on his father's. The latter were chased out of Portugal by the Inquisition and came to England via The Netherlands. He has never been more than mildly interested in his roots but family historians are catching up with him. So much information is now available online. I had to pursue my family history by way of microfiche cards and archives!

growstuff I am Irish. If you have an Irish parent, the Irish state automatically grants you citizenship. Historically, that was because English interference in Irish economy, laws and life and so Irish people were forced to emigrate. So I can make any joke I like about being Irish and Irish people are known for having a great sense of humour often self deprecating.

I don't think mine were at all posh.

I am descendant from French Huguenots who crossed over on foot to North Eastern Switzerland. When we first visited Cape Town 12 years ago, we also stayed in Frenchhoek- where the French Huguenots settled and started winegrowing. There is a Huguenot Museum there. And then it dawned on me, why the Head of the Apartheid movement was called 'Eugène Terreblanche' - because the Huguenots were very much involved with the slave trade in the Cape- just like the Boers and the British. They enslaved local tribes, and the masters, like the Boer and British masters, used the 'droit de cuissage' (thigh rights) - meaning they had the right to jump on any females when and where they wanted- for fun and also to produce more free slaves. The history of my MIL's family. They also used slaves from Indonesia, my FIL's family.

This is a fascinating thread, thank you for starting it, Trisher.

I’ve heard a little about the epigenetics side from a friend, it’s so interesting. I also wonder about other peoples that have been subjected to oppression, like Native Americans, (Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee is one of the most traumatic books I have ever read), Australian First Nations and Maori peoples. Is that historical trauma or is it, as someone earlier mentioned, the case that their ongoing poor treatment is responsible?

Regarding S Africa, my father was born in SA. His mother was descended from French Huguenots who had fled there in the 1600’s. There is also slave ancestry in her family, a female from Bengal. From what I have been able to ascertain, she was owned by two brothers and bore children to both of them. She was eventually manumitted.

As the daughter of a Holocaust survivor I suffered the trauma of the Holocaust secondhand as my mother was so embittered by having lost her close family and by having been starved and treated as slave labour that it affected the way my sisters and I were treated growing up.

But I wouldn't speak for other "second generation" Holocaust survivors because their parents may have processed the memories differently.

Trisher - I think the trauma referred to explains why many Jewish members of the Labour Party left when Jeremy Corbyn was leader. I found the statement he made yesterday and for which he has been suspended very upsetting because he tried to portray himself as the victim without a thought for the Jewish members of his party who suffered abuse and whose abuse may have reminded them of what their own parents and wider family may have suffered. I have posted about this on the other thread about his suspension.

Having said all this, it maybe that I am just a rather emotional type! I learned quite a lot of Irish history and despite not being of Irish descent, I always well up when I hear the song "Danny Boy" because I am reminded of the trauma I know of in my family.

biba70

growstuff, historically in South Africa, enslaved people were from 3 groups, local African tribes, Indonesians (now called coloureds/Cape Malays) and ans some re-imported from the Carribean. Complicated indeed.

I know.

But many blacks in the UK now aren't from enslaved people.

If there is ' genetic' memory does it mean that some groups of people who have suffered trauma such as genocide, apartheid, disposession, starvation are condemned to suffer the impact for generations? Looking around the world at the terrible things still happening to people today based on their racial/ religious background looks like the human race fails to learn from history..

Yes, very interesting.
I think I believe in genetic memory.

Yes, agreed. A really interesting thread.

Thanks so much for all the brilliant contributions, I am learning so much. Personal experiences and lots of other information which is so interesting.

growstuff, historically in South Africa, enslaved people were from 3 groups, local African tribes, Indonesians (now called coloureds/Cape Malays) and ans some re-imported from the Carribean. Complicated indeed.

Luckyoldbeethoven

Ah sure, it's good to be of Irish blood! We like a laugh.

I would never say that to you. Three times in my life I remember being reprimanded for referring to people's Irishness - not in a horrible way, but as a joke. I've learnt my lesson.

I think we should be careful when talking about "black people", especially in a UK context. Many of them aren't descended from slaves, but their families have come directly from Africa.

More seriously, the definition of trauma has broadened hugely in the last 20 years or so. I know about it through bodywork fields, there is a clinical psychologist called Peter Levine who has developed somatic healing and experiencing. He has written some fascinating books about how our bodies react to traumatic events (meaning serious threatening events which can be anything from car crashes to childhood happenings which we were too young to cope with) and how these things may be stored in the body and released through physical processes.

Of course, that's not the same as an event that may be encoded genetically and transferred to descendants but there is a field called behavioural genetics which has been influenced by developments in molecular biology and which is now suggesting through twin studies and the like that behaviour may be more influenced by our genes than we would like to think.

There's quite a lot of reading one could do out there and I think much of it has filtered down into assertions like the one of Bonnie Greer about the trauma of slavery being carried by black people. Having grown up in a family of staunch Irish republicans, I would say that the input of family stories means the cultural element must be quite hard to isolate and the quasi scientific, genetic approach gives a veneer of respectability and science behind the assertions.

I do remember being amazed when I met an Irish cousin whose father had left Ireland when he was a toddler and never returned so I knew his father, my uncle, well, whereas he didn't and the cousin had some of his father's mannerisms that I recognised only too well but which cannot have been acquired as a result of spending time with his father.