How Can A Government That Spends Billions On Mass Testing Quibble Over Helping The Low Paid?

Wait until the unemployment bubble bursts after this pandemic ! There'll need to be more than £20 " top-ups " needed for those who've skipped mortgages/ rents and bills !!

ed to be just because of Covid, if it’s extended for a while it will be a good thing but I can see how giving 6 million people ( not sure of actual figure) an upgrade of £20 per week forever would cost a massive amount to the country.

But, if you read my post of 12.04 you will see that the £20 upgrade will be spent in the 'real' economy. That is, in the every day, buying food and fuel and basic necessities (and a few 'luxuries', such as some beers or a takeaway pizza) type of economy. This money won't be squirreled away in 'savings' because it's desperately needed for daily existence.

And just about every penny that is spent in the 'real' economy is taxed either directly or indirectly, so returns to the Treasury. This is an incontrovertible fact of how money circulates. This being so, the extra money not only provides a small stimulus to the economy (keeping businesses and employment going) , but it also comes back to the government coffers once it's done so.

I really, truly and honestly can't see how people cannot understand this.

It's the people with loadsamoney who don't contribute much to the circulation of money in the economy. Once they've satisfied basic needs they still have loads left. They squirrel a lot of the excess away or circulate it among themselves by way of 'investment' in equity and property. Neither of which things produce so much tax...

The basic proposition is:

Govt gives money to poor people, they'll get just about all of it back

Govt. gives money to rich people (all those 'contracts') , they'll get far less back.

This government has squandered £57 billion on useless contracts leftfootforward.org/2020/08/the-government-is-using-the-pandemic-to-give-contracts-to-cronies/
There are currently 2.3 million people on UC giving them £20 is not only a comparable cost it is something which benefits the economy far more.

MaizieD

There are also people who have been working from home and who have saved money on travel and subsistence.

I think it's a bit unrealistic to think that there will be very little spare cash at all once restrictions are lifted, but the contention that uplifting benefit payments will help to maintain the 'real' economy is a valid one.

I agree with all these points MaizieD
The only thing is that the extra top up of £20 is supposed to be just because of Covid, if it’s extended for a while it will be a good thing but I can see how giving 6 million people ( not sure of actual figure) an upgrade of £20 per week forever would cost a massive amount to the country. I have much sympathy for those on very low wages and will wait to see what happens for them this year.
Covid is an absolute disaster for everything, economically, mental and physical health, and even we are hearing, the law courts with a backlog that will take ages to clear ( more mental health problems with stress.)

trisher

So who is going to have the cash to eat out or go to the cinema/theatre? Not many people. It won't happen by magic you know. Loads of small businesses are already closed, more will go. Pubs were already struggling. The idea that they will suddenly find the money to open up is ridiculous.

Some people will have spare cash and the government will be reluctant to tax them. The result will be an even more unequal society. So much for levelling up!

Oh dear, really sorry, this is an interesting discussion but as I've been addressed by name I will respond to MaggsMcG.

We are not highest per capita for deaths. We're 8th. 8th is not good, but we are not highest. Here are the stats. Why do people keep repeating this when it isn't true?

Source is Worldometer.

PippaZ

It has to be Maizie. Rather like giving a decent basic pension.

But, Pippa, I'll be receiving my state pension from April and will be better off than I am now with some self-employed income and Universal Credit. I'm not claiming that the state pension is generous, but it's actually worth more than working age benefits, which should give a clue as to how inadequate Universal Credit is.

Pippa It's the discredited idea of "trickle down economics".

Alegrias1

Nope - number 8 by deaths per million. Italy, Slovenia, Belgium and others all higher.

As of today we are the highest per capita apparently for deaths but when you look at the size of the country we have less opportunity to spread out so that must have an effect too.

It has to be Maizie. Rather like giving a decent basic pension.

There are also people who have been working from home and who have saved money on travel and subsistence.

I think it's a bit unrealistic to think that there will be very little spare cash at all once restrictions are lifted, but the contention that uplifting benefit payments will help to maintain the 'real' economy is a valid one.

I hear some of this idea that there will money that "people" have saved going back into the economy from the odd Tory politician. They seem to be referring to all the expensive holidays people haven't been able to take

Where people have been used to such holidays it really doesn't mean the money has been under the bed all this time. Many people, with the ability to do so, may have been living off this because their earnings have been cut or disappeared. Others have invested in their homes, gardens, home office, etc. You certainly couldn't get a bathroom fitter for love nor money at one point, lockdown or no lockdown. Others were simply never in that income bracket and a few will have realised there is no point in getting into debt when the world feels so precarious. I think there will have been a lot of rethinking - I understand the applications to adopt have risen. Family and community (I know that's a dirty word to a Tory) has become more important to many.

Obviously if you never normally wash your own hair you may be in a different income group to the vast majority of people.

So who is going to have the cash to eat out or go to the cinema/theatre? Not many people. It won't happen by magic you know. Loads of small businesses are already closed, more will go. Pubs were already struggling. The idea that they will suddenly find the money to open up is ridiculous.

There should be no return to 'normality' until the greater part of the population is properly vaccinated (with 2 doses where applicable). Which will probably be by the Autumn at the very earliest. I understand that we need at least 80%+ coverage to achieve herd immunity. People are already thinking that the vaccination is going to make them invincible (see the other thread on here) Opening up too soon (again)would be a very rash move, particularly in view of the development of antibody resistant mutations of the virus.

When things do back to something approaching normality,
Pubs and restaurants, cafes and cinemas and theatres and all leisure jobs that are presently furloughed or lost will be back in business, and we don’t know what will be in the budget as yet.
As you say, it may well be extended until July anyway.

I suspect that that 'things that will have changed for jobs' by April will be that there are fewer of them around, what with Brexit sending a large number of businesses to the wall in addition to covid job losses...

I have seen on twitter that the £20 top up is to be extended until July. I'm looking for confirmation ATM.

On the continuation of the £20 top up for the duration of Covid, perhaps by April things will have changed for jobs and the economy and won’t be quite as needed, or perhaps Sunak will be unveiling something else at the Spring Budget.
So if you can't make ends meet just cross your fingers, believe in the Finance fairy and tighten your belt a bit more. Unfortunately the Tories will still be handing out big bucks to their mates for useless bits of tech and people at the bottom will still go hungry!

Alegrias1

OK, really sorry but I'm going to defend myself here. If people say we're the top of the table for infections or anything else, and we're not, then it is misrepresenting the way we are dealing with this pandemic and I will continue to call it out. I am very angry with the way that this whole thing has been handled by the government but I am not going to let exaggeration stand unchallenged.

I don’t think you should have to defend yourself for telling the truth!

On the continuation of the £20 top up for the duration of Covid, perhaps by April things will have changed for jobs and the economy and won’t be quite as needed, or perhaps Sunak will be unveiling something else at the Spring Budget.

What annoys me so much about the 'small state' ideology is that it is economically totally unsound.

Every penny that goes to the poorest in the country will be spent. It will be spent mostly on food and basic necessities. This money will be keeping retail businesses going, and, because of indirect taxes, such as VAT, most of it will return to the treasury by way of taxation.

On the other hand, we learn, for example, that Dido best mates with most of the tory govt past and present Harding's dire Test, Trace & Isolate operation is employing nine hundred consultants who are being paid one thousand pounds a day. (on a 5 day week that works out at an unbelieveable £260,000 pa) Now, no-one can convince me that that all of that money is spent in the day to day 'real' economy to the benefit of the businesses they purchase from, the employees of those businesses and most of it returning to the treasury. It will be spent on 'investments' which have no benefit to anyone except the small circle of wealthy people who garner more money through dividends and the buying and selling of equities. Or squirreled away in a tax haven, or in property... Most of this gives very little back to the treasury by way of taxation because it's not heavily taxed and because they know the avoidance dodges...

I must admit there is a small but very spiteful part of me that almost relishes that those who may have disregarded the plight of the majority in receipt of benefits will get to see how it really when find themselves needing it due to current economic mess.

I think you might not be the only one , Dorsetcupcake...

Thankyou PippaZ and growstuff for maintaining my sanity?.
I think there are so many misconceptions about Universal Credid and benefits in general. For the past decade I have despaired at the callousness of large parts of society towards the most vulnerable members of society.
The whole concept of UC is supposed to be to make work pay. The reality is its impossible to survive on. The idea is it's so dire you will grab at any zero hour gig economy job to just live on breadline.
I suppose it's a bit of a step back in history to the workhouse. It was there if needed it but you would have to be without hope or choice to enter it.
I must admit there is a small but very spiteful part of me that almost relishes that those who may have disregarded the plight of the majority in receipt of benefits will get to see how it really when find themselves needing it due to current economic mess.

Conservative MPon the radio this morning claiming Labour are "playing politics" with this Bill. Do you think he doesn't realise that's actually his bloody job!

We so often hear on GN that people don't know how to budget, cook, etc., but this obviously comes from those who don't understand what it is to not have choice in so many areas of life.

I know and I've told myself not to be bothered by them. If anybody ever said any of that stuff to my face, I would have to resist the urge to punch them. As it is, they sometimes get the sharp edge of my tongue.

Where is the government that puts family and community first rather than the individual or the creed?

Errmmm ...

Sorry it's such a long post.