Scottish independence, English me would like to understand

This issue is discussed a lot on Mumsnet FarNorth. I think it is very tricky and it might be worth starting a thread about it.

Unfortunately varian I do feel politically homeless at the moment because of the general push, from all parties except the Tories, for acceptance of self-identification of sex.

The law hasn't changed but self-identified sex is accepted by police, prisons, hospitals, schools etc etc, and many politicians do want it brought into law.

I have never, in many years of party membership met a LibDem who would ever see themselves as to the right of the conservatives PippaZ. However there have been instances where we were on some policies to the left of the Labour Party which is in many ways conservative with a small "c". We do believe in having a mixed economy, but the ownership of companies should not be the main issue, rather what would best serve our communities.

Speaking personally, I joined the Liberals in the 1970s because we had moved to a part of the country where there were only two parties the Liberals and the Tories. The Labour Party hardly existed, although there was a time when our local Tory Councillor was so worried about being defeated by our Liberal candidate that she persuaded the postman (a very popular chap) to stand for Labour by telling him that his union would pay his costs, which they did. I am glad to say she was still beaten by the Liberal!

When the SDP was formed and we met the local members, I thought that they were just the same as us except that they had taken a bit longer to come to the same conclusion, that social democracy was preferable to the entrenched policies of the union dominated Labour Party. Because of the undemocratic FPTP system of elections, it is difficult enough for one centre left party to compete, let alone two and so merging was the best way forward. Although I have probably never at any time believed in every single party policy, I very much identified with leaders like Roy Jenkins, David Steel, Shirley Williams and Paddy Ashdown and I think in the present difficult circumstances, Ed Davey is doing a good job..

There is no need for anyone who believes in trying to build a fair society ever feeling politically homeless.

varian

The Creation of a Federal United Kingdom.

Federalism, and making decisions at the local level for local people, is at the heart of what we as liberals believe in. In September 2020 the Liberal Democrat Conference reaffirmed its commitment to a federal UK .

-https://www.libdems.org.uk/a20-federal-uk

Thanks Varian.

One more question. I know the Liberals decided to go for the "democrats" part of the SDP when they merged but I don't think that makes it clear what they are. Do you think they see themselves as Liberals who are generally defined as to the right of the old definition of Conservative or Social Liberals as they were in the early 1900s and generally taken to mean belief in a mixed economy with the government running public services and some regulation on private enterprise.

Having read a little on this it doesn't help that this centrist position is called different things in different countries but it would help if they shouted this from the roof tops if that's what they believe. I didn't know the bit you quoted above and I would have actually wanted to know. We do not have a declared party of mixed economy - or rather I haven't heard anyone say this is what they are. We all know the base of Labour is ownership of the means of production even though Blair did a good job in dragging them away from that and that the New Tories verge on libertarianism. Neither of those positions interest me (or many others I would guess) so there are many politically homeless people in this country.

I not attacking - just delving

lemongrove

Brexit is not a project ( although you already know that)?
Negotiating with the EU over a trade deal last year had to be done ( unless you would have preferred no deal).Unhappily it co-incided with a terrible year of Covid.
NS on the other hand could have refused to even mention a future referendum until Covid is over.
Still, those who admire her will do their best to defend.

It didn't have to be done, the transition period could have been extended.

It's astonishing that the people who say this is not the time for constitutional change are, by-and-large, the same people who insisted on the largest constitutional change in recent history going ahead according their preferred timetable.

Misreading the comments there Jane10. My comment was that she has put the pandemic response first, not that she's only doing that and nothing else. I just had a look at Johnson's twitter feed. Lots about the virus, also things about employing new policemen, climate change, and an upcoming visit to India. I'm not criticising this at all, the leaders of countries have a lot to think about. So trying to suggest that the SNP publishing a plan for independence is somehow unacceptable during a pandemic is just politicking. Nye Bevan came up with the NHS during a war. If he can do that, our politicians can certainly think of two things at once.

I've read Craig Brown's deposition. If the SNP have done something wrong they need to answer for it. I'm not deifying anybody. But I'm not demonising them either.

Sorry Alegrias but current emerging events around SNP are showing anything but their transparency. Read Craig Brown's sworn deposition. SNP in for a deservedly bumpy ride.

Its actually hard to believe that anyone can think that NS is focusing solely on the pandemic. Why produce the 11 point plan to independence and discuss an unofficial referendum at the same time as our vaccine roll out is so slow compared to the rest of the UK?

I like the concept of a 'United Kingdom' and I appreciate the benefits we've had as being a part of it. The jobs supported by the furlough scheme, the vaccine and the really excellent information from very senior scientific and medical staff.

Its quite laughable really that anybody thinks that one woman sits in an office somewhere in Edinburgh making ALL the plans for the pandemic response, and writing the WHOLE manifesto for a political party, thinking up ways to annoy the English, and working out how to brainwash the population into following her idea that she's just thought up out of thin air.

Don't let your political bias blind you to the fact the the First Minister of Scotland has put the pandemic response first on every occasion. Anybody, any political opponent or any press outlet who says different is playing politics and to most of us its quite transparent.

The Creation of a Federal United Kingdom.

Federalism, and making decisions at the local level for local people, is at the heart of what we as liberals believe in. In September 2020 the Liberal Democrat Conference reaffirmed its commitment to a federal UK .

-https://www.libdems.org.uk/a20-federal-uk

varian

Surely no-one who has seen the disastrous consequenses of puting unnecessary borders between the UK and the EU, the huge explosion in bureaucracy, cost and delays, could ever ever contemplate putting up a border between Scotland and the rest of the UK????

Do the Lib Dems have any opinion on an English Parliament Varian? No need for boarders if we have a properly constituted Union.

Brexit is not a project ( although you already know that)?
Negotiating with the EU over a trade deal last year had to be done ( unless you would have preferred no deal).Unhappily it co-incided with a terrible year of Covid.
NS on the other hand could have refused to even mention a future referendum until Covid is over.
Still, those who admire her will do their best to defend.

Petera. Exactly

lemongrove

I would like to add, that NS devoting so much time to her independence project at this particular time is a disgrace.
The Covid pandemic needs to be truly over first.

I would like to add, that BJ devoting so much time to his Brexit project at this particular time is a disgrace.
The Covid pandemic needs to be truly over first.

Bangs head against wall in disbelief...The GERS system was compiled by Iain Laing ..specofially to prove how Unviable Scotland was .It was in his remit to do so.The GERS figures show our "share" of all teh UK debts ..thats money we wouldn't be spending if we weren't IN the UK .things like Trident.80% of those polled want trident out of Scotland ,Then theres HS2 which will cost us billions despite it coming nowhere near Scotland .theres loads of this stuff .its all available to anyone who is interested in facts.Of course there are those who think because the "union" has been around for centuries that it has to stay ,I dont understand that ,especially from Scots .Would you stay in an abusive marriage for life just because your abusive partner doesn't want to let go ?
Look at the rhetoric of the union and you'll find its exactly like an abusive marriage .You'll never cope without ME .you'll have no money I'm not giving you mine.no one else will ever want you....just stay you're better of with me than starting again on your own ...etc etc etc.Of course its only 7 years since we heard it all before and hopefully MOST of us know that it means NOTHING .We stay they keep doing the same stuff.Stripping our assets .claiming all that is ours as theirs ..you know the sort of thing..they did the same with India .Look THAT up!!

varian

Surely no-one who has seen the disastrous consequenses of puting unnecessary borders between the UK and the EU, the huge explosion in bureaucracy, cost and delays, could ever ever contemplate putting up a border between Scotland and the rest of the UK????

Border between Norway and Sweden. Google it. ?

Two countries behaving like grown ups, one in the EU and one not. They worked it out. No hard border. Works like clockwork.

Apparently the wolves and bears cross over all the time. That's one thing we won't have to worry about.

Anniebach

Welsh is an official language, I didn’t speak Welsh when I went to England or Scotland or France

An Australian spoke Welsh to me in Australia, Anniebach! He was very disappointed that I didn't understand him.

(the home of the mythical Aberdonian miser)

I must say that my Scottish friends are amongst the most generous people I know, particularly my dearest friend.

Gwyneth

Just a thought but if Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP do manage to get a referendum shouldn’t everyone in the UK be allowed to vote? After all this will affect everyone living in the UK to a degree. I have many friends living in Southern Ireland and they have all said that if there was a referendum re a United Ireland they would most definitely want to be given the opportunity to vote on this as well as those living in Northern Ireland.

Those are two separate voting ideas though.

Unless you think everyone in the EU should have been given a vote on brexit?

Exactly varian! It would be daft.

Surely no-one who has seen the disastrous consequenses of puting unnecessary borders between the UK and the EU, the huge explosion in bureaucracy, cost and delays, could ever ever contemplate putting up a border between Scotland and the rest of the UK????

Welsh is an official language, I didn’t speak Welsh when I went to England or Scotland or France

Thank you Elegran for your reply and also Maizie for referring me to Elegran’s earlier post.

I totally agree with you Flicker. United we stand divided we fall. It's too late for all these regional languages now too. We all speak English fluently. Let's stick to it. As a previous poster said Welsh or Gaelic is not spoken anywhere else in the world, so is not as valuable as learning French or Spanish.

Some figures. Speak for themselves.

Having read through the thread I have decided I am too far out of my depth to comment but would like to say that some very eloquent and articulate Scots have given me a greater understanding of their feelings. Thanks.