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Scottish independence, English me would like to understand

(439 Posts)
LauraNorder Sat 30-Jan-21 16:08:48

I’m English, living in Wales and would like to understand how everyone in the four nations feels.
Tory government aside. because that can be changed, why are we anxious to split our union?
I know passions run deep but can we keep it cool.

Riverwalk Sat 30-Jan-21 16:16:06

I'm English and live London.

I think it inevitable that Scotland will leave the Union, given Brexit - and I don't blame them.

If London could do the same that would please me! But that's not likely as London has not previously been an independent country, as Scotland once was.

Urmstongran Sat 30-Jan-21 16:17:55

I really hope Scotland stays in the UK. Having voted Brexit myself, I can fully appreciate the heart can rule the head in that perhaps Scotland being financially poorer for a while, during transition, won’t sway them to remain with us.

lemongrove Sat 30-Jan-21 16:20:44

To be fair, it’s only some ( not all) SNP voters who want to split from the rest of the UK.
They should really (if dissatisfied) with things, be voting the SNP out.I think that leaving the EU ( SNP voters seem to be happy with Brussels masters but not Westminster ones) and
Covid has made a lot of people in Scotland think that independence will change things.It won’t. It was meant to be once in a generation ( their referendum) and they voted to stay in the union.

lemongrove Sat 30-Jan-21 16:24:30

I would like to add, that NS devoting so much time to her independence project at this particular time is a disgrace.
The Covid pandemic needs to be truly over first.

Alegrias1 Sat 30-Jan-21 16:28:35

Och I managed to stay off for all of five minutes...I'm trying to be nice.

Wanting independence does not equal voting SNP. Some people who vote labour want independence. The Green Party are for independence. And although this might not help my cause, the Scottish Socialist party are pro-independence.

Voting the SNP out won't erase 300 years of dissatisfaction amongst those of us who feel it, but once we're independent we can vote for who we like. A Scottish Conservative Party maybe? To think that the reason we want independence is about COVID misses the point entirely and kind of plays into the hands of those of us who want independence to build ourselves a proper country away from people who think they know what we want.

Septimia Sat 30-Jan-21 16:28:39

I'm English, live in England not far from the Scottish border, have friends and relatives in Scotland and prefer going there for holidays.

I would very much regret it if Scotland insisted on independence, especially if travel and other contacts were made more difficult.

A lot of the arguments in the past have hinged e.g. on income from oil (which is declining and will continue to do so). I don't think things will turn out as rosy as they're painted.

On the other hand, I can understand that Westminster doesn't fully understand Scottish needs - they don't even understand those for this region. Greater autonomy without leaving the union might be sensible. But when you consider that Edinburgh is so far away from John O'Groats (let alone the Northern Isles) surely the same problems exist within Scotland.

Riverwalk Sat 30-Jan-21 16:31:49

Laura have you ever pondered why the people of Wales voted to leave the EU? This was a bit of a split!

TerriBull Sat 30-Jan-21 16:34:53

They feel disenfranchised!

It never occurred to me until my son, on returning back to the London area from university a few years ago said to me "you know your problem mum, you're London centric" shock "Heavens, maybe I am" thought I, such a concept never really occurred to me. I grew up in the suburbs close to London, worked there, lived there, took it all for granted. It's where the immigrant relatives in my family settled, because they saw it as a place of opportunity. Both my parents were raised in London. I can imagine, depending on one's geographical location, London is seen as a decision making hub that doesn't represent the regions.

lemongrove Sat 30-Jan-21 16:34:54

......Scotland has a great amount of autonomy already though.
300 years of dissatisfaction? Time to put ancient grudges aside and live in the modern world surely.
We are such close neighbours that a split would be a great shame.

LauraNorder Sat 30-Jan-21 16:36:42

I was going to leave party politics aside and get a feel for feelings.
For example another poster who I hope will be along soon has said that she feels that we no longer share the same values politically or culturally. She also feels that she doesn’t want to be part of a larger more dominant country.
I feel that devolved government has given each nation power for some self government but the down side means the borders are stronger and more obvious so that we are no longer capable of acting as one country and therefore our values are diverging.
Here in Wales I am often embarrassed when visiting friends refer to the Queen of England, how is that inclusive? Or the England cricket team which is actually the England and all Wales cricket team. This makes other nations resentful, ignored, unimportant.
If we are ever to save our union we need to understand the deep feelings and ask what we can do to make it right.
Please let’s not slag off any nations First Minister.

AGAA4 Sat 30-Jan-21 16:37:25

I am English but have lived in Wales for over 40 years. I would like Scotland to stay in the union, but I would like to hear more about why some people in Scotland want to leave. Will they fare better in the EU? Genuine question.

LauraNorder Sat 30-Jan-21 16:41:42

Alegrias I’m glad you’re here. I tried to refer to your comments elsewhere without using your name. I wonder if it’s possible for you to copy your original post to show the gist of the conversation I was hoping to start here.

LauraNorder Sat 30-Jan-21 16:42:47

That’s what I would like AGA. To understand

timetogo2016 Sat 30-Jan-21 16:44:21

My father was Scottish born and bred but chose to live in England.
I can honestly say that if the Scots want to be independant i feel they could/would lose people who holiday there as i believe would Wales would too.
A lot of there income come from holiday makers,but no doubt i will be shouted down for that comment.
And lemongrove you made a top point.

Charleygirl5 Sat 30-Jan-21 16:45:33

I am Scottish and living in London for the vast majority of my adult life but I am still Scottish. I personally think it would be a big mistake leaving. Scotland I do not think we realise how much money pays for eg a simple thing like free parking at hospitals and I believe that care is free when one needs to go into a care home. Practical issues but the money comes from somewhere.

lynx Sat 30-Jan-21 16:47:38

I'm English, Married to a Scot and living in Wales. I really hope we stay united. Going back to Hubby's home, he has to put on his usually non existent accent to be made welcome in some parts of Scotland which we both are sad about. I hope no further referendums are allowed but NS is riling up the Scots. They don't seem to realise they cannot afford independence. (hides behind wall)

merlotgran Sat 30-Jan-21 16:49:38

Can somebody please point out the disadvantages to the rest of the UK if Scotland leaves?

janeainsworth Sat 30-Jan-21 16:51:29

One thing that puzzled me about the 2014 referendum was that Scottish people living in England didn’t have a vote, and English people living in Scotland did.
Having fervently hoped in 2014 that the Scots would vote to stay in the U.K., now I really don’t care.
Although I voted to remain in the EU, it feels as though the combination of Brexit and Covid has changed my world view and made me more insular, which I don’t like.
I just hope the Scots don’t decide they’d like to annex Northumberland!

paddyanne Sat 30-Jan-21 16:52:45

So this isn't an Independence thread at all ... its a lets knock SNP and its supporters !

Scotland voted for the SNP in both the Holyrood parliament and in WM because we want change for the unionist parties who are controlled south of the border will never achieve that change .Maybe try to respect OUR choice ,at least we dont foist it on others as England has for many years We haven't voted for a majority tory govt since 1953 ..we get them whether we vote for them or not .We need to make our own choices thank you,we are evry capable of choosing whats right for us .

LauraNorder Sat 30-Jan-21 16:57:21

Being in a different country to our friends, neighbours, family. Loss of years of shared systems. Horrid borders would be a few disadvantages
I’d rather see how we can make it right and save our union hence my hope of some open discussion about how Scots, Welsh and N Irish feel and how the English feel.
Do we acknowledge that we wouldn’t want to be pArt of a union where one of the other nations dominated? Hence the Brexit vote.

paddyanne Sat 30-Jan-21 16:58:44

Jainainsworth why should people who dont live work or contribute to Scotland have a vote? Surely they have a vote where they live?

Alegrias1 Sat 30-Jan-21 17:00:31

Here's the main part of my original post, as requested by Laura

I don’t believe anyone in Scotland thinks we’d walk out of the UK union and right into the EU the next day, but the fact that we have a deal now, however bad it is, means that we will remain aligned with some EU rules and that would make entry easier in the future.

But, if it were proven that we couldn’t join the EU, then we have the choice of being a small independent nation like Norway or Iceland (Yes, I know they have lots of money). Or a country tied to a larger, dominant country whose values are diverging rapidly from ours both politically, socially and culturally. A country that’s ignored our separate needs for many years and is threatened by a devolved parliament. A country that is trying to gaslight the Scottish population into thinking it doesn’t want independence because we need the bigger, more powerful country to look after us and to remain in their “precious union”.

Oh, and people who think that insulting our elected FM is OK and fail to see that we elected her party, so in telling us how crap she is, you’re telling us how stupid we were to vote for her. Or think that we’re daft enough to fall for “lovebombing” thinking it will divert our minds from the way we’ve been treated since the last time they tried that in 2014, when they immediately changed tack the minute power came back to Westminster.

So yes, independence over this Union, every time.

I and people like me want to build a country that reflects our values.

Some of the posts above; "I don't think they realise..." "What they should do is....." "NS is riling up the Scots...." We're not stupid, we're fed up.

LauraNorder Sat 30-Jan-21 17:05:51

No PaddyAnne, this is not a knock the SNP thread. I am trying to keep it on track as a sensible discussion so that we can all understand each other.
I am English, I feel hated by some in all other nations simply because I am English. I don’t want to feel like that. I want to feel British and part of a whole.
I want to understand why some feel that intense hatred and why others feel that they don’t want to be British. So far the point that makes the most sense to me is Alegrias not wanting to be part of a country where one nation has dominance. I wouldn’t want that either. So how can we rectify that?

PippaZ Sat 30-Jan-21 17:06:12

I have long felt that the only thing that will keep us together is an English parliament. You cannot, at the same time, even-handedly represent England and represent all the countries of UK. Nor can you represent the areas of England properly with the parliament we have.

So like the Scots I feel side-lined and unrepresented. I don't blame them for wanting independence but I think they would thrive better with a more devolved country within a properly representative upper house.