Scottish independence, English me would like to understand

Independence is NORMAL ....thats all there is to it .If I were to tell our Unionist friends here that WE in Scotland will take over the reins of the mismanaged UK ,that we'll take all the revenue and give you a % of what you hand over ..oh and if we decide to build a bridge to the moon you'll be responsible for 92 % of the debt ...I'd guess you'd be up in arms.It appears its OK for Scotland to be treated like this and constantly talked down ?
THIS is my country I want better for it than we've had for centuries ,2nd city of the Empire they used to call Glasgow in the days when WM took 75% of our revenue ( its on record ,used to be published) people were living in squalor in slum conditions while money earned and taxed here went south .
It may be history but it hasn't really changed !

No Gwyneth none of your taxes would be paid to an independent Scotland, and no Scottish taxes would be paid to an independent Westminster.

In terms of wealth per head, the Scottish central belt generates as much wealth as much of London and the South. The North-East (the home of the mythical Aberdonian miser) contributes the most per head.

A question for everyone - how much per head does your region generate for the UK economy, and how much is spent per head there by Westminster?

Espana

I think that if the Scottish people want a referendum they should have it. If the result is independence for them then so be it but I for one would be incredibly saddened to lose an old , trusted and staunch friend.

But you're not going to lose them. They're not going to cut Scotland adrift from the British land mass!

I would put money on Scotland becoming independent and the two Irelands uniting, probably within 5 years. Scotland and N Ireland voted to remain in the EU.

janeainsworth, I see your point about people moving into or out of Scotland for a short time and whether or not they should have a vote. I think that if people move and register to vote somewhere, they can vote there. If someone moves away but maintains an address in Scotland as they expect to be back, they can vote. If someone chooses to move here to live and work ,and registers, they can vote. Any other arrangement would be a nightmare to organise.

I have Scottish and English friends living in Scotland who voted in different ways in 2014 and we are still friends. Once again, what Alegrias1 said!

Too much use of the word couple in my post?

Untrue Alegrias .....we met two Scottish couple on holiday a couple of years ago, one couple were moving house because of being targeted ( in their village) for their views and the other couple were considering leaving Scotland altogether.
In some places in Scotland things became very personal and even aggressive at times.

A word about "angry, divisive" referendums.

The run up to the 2014 referendum was exciting. We'd talk about Barnett Consequentials in the queue for the ladies and federalisation options in the canteen at work. People in Scotland were politically active and for a few days, the power was with us.

I have friends who voted yes and friends who voted no. They're all still my friends, apart from the one who told me I was being led astray by "that man off the telly". People had good reasons to be on both sides of the vote and discussing them like adults was a joy.

This myth that the referendum was divisive has been created by the Better Together camp after the event, to try to disrupt plans for another one. Bizarrely, its the side who won who have come up with this idea.

I think that if the Scottish people want a referendum they should have it. If the result is independence for them then so be it but I for one would be incredibly saddened to lose an old , trusted and staunch friend.

‘Scottish nobility are no longer in charge here’......really? ?
So things have changed a bit in the last 300 years then, who’d a thunk it.

Actually I think Scottish people living elsewhere in the UK should have voting rights in a referendum.Recent immigrants from many different countries who have settled in Scotland were able to vote weren’t they? Yes, they had arrived in Scotland but came from EU and other countries from around the world, whereas Scottish people who were born and bred in Scotland and may have had to live elsewhere due to all sorts of reasons couldn’t do the same.

Wheniwasyourage I have a relation who has lived in England for 50 years and who would vote No, in spite of having very little idea of what life here is like now

That’s quite a extreme example, though.
How would you feel if one of your AC had gone to work in London for say, two years? Should they be denied a say in Scotland’s future, having been born & brought up there?

Conversely what if one of my AC had been working in Scotland for two years? Would that give them the right to a vote?

I’m not arguing either way BTW. I just think it raises an interesting question about eligibility to vote.

Scottish nobility are no longer in charge here, lemongrove, and anyway, most of them seem to be educated privately in England, so are not much part of daily life. Can I remind you too that there are other ways of being closer to Europe than being in the EU? Norway has better trading links with the EU than Brexit Britain, for example, and that is another possibility for an independent Scotland.

As for Scots (how would you define that?) who live elsewhere in the UK voting in an independence referendum, I have a relation who has lived in England for 50 years and who would vote No, in spite of having very little idea of what life here is like now. He gets incensed at the very thought of independence, and he has the right to his opinion, but I don't think he has the right to decide what happens here any more. Unlike my friend down the road, who is English but has lived here for 20 years. I don't know his views on independence, but whatever they are, I feel that he has the right to vote on them. In passing, I would say that he never feels that he has to change his accent or speak like the locals to be accepted!

The Alex Salmond debacle is very much ongoing, it should be an interesting case to watch JMcD

Alegrias1 - not worthy of a reply ?

Does Scotland really want another angry divisive referendum
I wonder? It really set neighbour against neighbour in many places.

Are you blaming Nicola and the SNP because it gets cold in Scotland in winter?

My grasp of history is just fine thanks MaizieD I gave the shortened version ( not everyone on the forum enjoys being lectured)?
Nothing I said was wrong/ untrue. It was the right of James to take the English and Scottish thrones and he was happy to
Accept it. Scottish nobility were happy to accept the Union later on.
Time to move on I would have thought.....I can’t imagine anyone in Scotland today is interested in such old history, rather they ( some) have been convinced they should no longer be allied to the UK but become a vassal of Germany and France ( they run the show, after all.)

Alegrais1 - the Queensferry Crossing has to be closed on cold days because of falling ice! The new Edinburgh children's hospital cannot be open due to issues with the construction (but is costing a fortune under contract). The Edinburgh trams ran vastly over budget with some planned areas being axed. Even the Scottish parliament building was over budget with very costly upkeep for a building unsuited to the Scottish climate. The shipyard contract was a total shambles. I
could go on and on! (I won't mention the Alex Salmond debackle!)

Gwyneth

If Scotland achieved independence would all funding from Westminster stop? Just to be clear would any of my taxes be paid to an independent Scotland?

I suggest you re-read Elegran's post of 9.54.

If Scotland achieved independence would all funding from Westminster stop? Just to be clear would any of my taxes be paid to an independent Scotland?

Jane10 - There is an election planned for May. Whether it goes ahead or not remains to be seen, with the state of the pandemic. All the parties have to create manifestos, and the SNP one includes the roadmap for independence. I don't think that's a surprise.

Who’ll run Scotland if we achieve independence? Whoever it is we vote for. Posters upthread have said how voting SNP now is a means to an end for achieving independence, not a way of giving the SNP power over Scotland forever. However if people have concern that after independence the electorate keep on returning an SNP government, well that says more about their view that the electorate don’t know what they’ve voting for and aren’t to be trusted with running their own country. That’s not good.

Who would sort out the separation for the 300 year union? (not 400). Well the proposition for 2014 was a transition team with representatives from both the Union and Scotland and from all political persuasions. Not all negotiations have to be confrontational, like Brexit was. And if some think there is no-one is Scotland capable of being part of that, well that just indicates what they think of their fellow citizens. Best give it to Westminster, they know what they’re doing. We’re too wee, too poor, too stupid.

Partition in Ireland was 100 years ago, and it followed a war of independence. I think we’ve moved on.

I’m not being diverted by a discussion about the bridge. Read this. 8% below budget and effectively managed. Not everything in Scotland is a disaster, despite what some try to say.
www.audit-scotland.gov.uk/uploads/docs/report/2018/nr_180802_forth_crossing.pdf

Just a thought but if Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP do manage to get a referendum shouldn’t everyone in the UK be allowed to vote? After all this will affect everyone living in the UK to a degree. I have many friends living in Southern Ireland and they have all said that if there was a referendum re a United Ireland they would most definitely want to be given the opportunity to vote on this as well as those living in Northern Ireland.

Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles also voted to Remain in Europe.
And the one or two voices calling for them to be independent from Scotland do not reflect a widespread view.

It is very strange on the one hand you have globalisation with nations wanting to surrender their independence and then on the other you have tribalism with everyone wanting their own individual groups.

That's what happens when you base decisions on nationalism. And English exceptionalism.

I'm finding all this stuff about 'working together' quite nauseating in view of the fact that a predominantly English vote has pulled us out of a unique union for what is becoming very clearly nationalistic reasons. (All this jingoism about how we beat the EU over vaccines just illustrates it). Why should voters who happily took the benefits of Free Movement in Europe away be worried about losing Free Movement in Scotland? Why should Scotland be trapped with the country which took away something they valued? A country, what is more, that clearly thinks it is its colonial master?

It isn't strange at all, polarisation causes polarisation. When you have extremism to one extreme, you get extremism to the other extreme.

Globalisation and the absorption of one culture, one company, one nation, into a larger conglomerate increases the opposite view, that each culture, company, nation, is separate and distinct, and brings to the fore the desire not to vanish into an amorphous soup.