Scottish independence, English me would like to understand

The Queensferry crossing has had to close umpteen times due to icing problems. It's completion was delayed and it has had to be repaired several times.
Re the question of Sturgeon not promoting independence : if she's so busy on the pandemic how did she find time to produce her recent 11 steps to independence plan?
Alegrias in the catastrophic event of Scotland voting for independence, and its not to be run by SNP, then by whom? Who would sort out the break up from 400 year old union given that brexit seemed so hard? Which economic brain would work out how the economy would with having to have a new currency far less the inevitable capital flight? There has been a great deal of blustery talk and wishful thinking but no actual details about the bottom line : money, where it would come from, how pensions and benefits would work in the light of the likely collapse of the economy etc
Alegrias have you looked at the state of southern Ireland in the decades immediately after partition? They were in dire straits for many years.

What about Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles? They voted to stay in the Independence Referendum of 2014, and more lately have voiced wanting their own independence separately from Scotland.

It is very strange on the one hand you have globalisation with nations wanting to surrender their independence and then on the other you have tribalism with everyone wanting their own individual groups.

SUPPORTING INDEPENDENCE DOES NOT EQUAL AN SNP GOVERNMENT IN PERPETUITY.

I know I'm shouting. Bold type next.

The Queensferry Crossing (that's its name) was not over budget. Best planned and executed project I've seen anywhere for a long time.

Bravehearts. Dear God!

I am a Londoner but have lived in Scotland since 1976. I cannot understand those that want an Independant Scotland. We have had 10 years of SNP in government and what do we have? Education in decline, roads full of pot holes, a health service in disarray, projects such as the Edinburgh trams, New Forth bridge and the new children's hospital over budget and not fit for purpose. To top it all at a time when the nations health is at huge risk our political leaders seem more interested in Independance than the successful and timely roll out of the vaccine programme (funded by the UK government). I cannot think of one advantage of breaking away from Westminster - where would the money come from? Bravehearts think again!!

Being in a different country to our friends, neighbours, family. Loss of years of shared systems

I don't understand this comment. Scotland is not moving further away. It is not going to float off to relocate between NZ & Australia. Contact via phone, internet, (and when the pandemic has been overcome -travel) will continue as usual.

As to shared systems, I would cite the carry on and expense I have had trying to get England Based Bank and Stockbroker to recognise my Scottish POA and release DH's savings to pay his care home fees. All because they insisted that they only operated under UK - i,e, English Law. I'm now having the same palaver in resolving his minuscule estate because they are demanding full probate (going to cost circa £1000) which would not be necessary under Scots Law. My solicitor says that these problems crop up all the time as London based financiers cannot accept that English Law does not apply throughout the UK.

Sparkling said A very large part of Scotland is uninhabited
I would refute that - sparsely populated perhaps in some areas, but surely that is a good thing, allowing space to breath, get away from it all, explore, for leisure, to site wind farms/hydro schemes, etc. With modern technology no where is truly remote.

Lovely map Jane10, but a bit misleading. The results of the 2014 referendum were not based on constituencies but on total votes cast, so the little pie chart top left is more representative of the actual result. Results of a more up to date poll are attached.

I'd prefer to see a threshold, maybe 60%? to prevent any squabbling over "silent majorities" and the results of any future referendum.

Or we could just declare UDI ?

Sparkling A couple of mistakes in your post.
The quite a large amount of money you refer to is the amount that would have been spent from Wesrminster in Scotland on the things which are now devolved and administered from Holyrood, proportionately to the population. In return quite a large amount is paid into Westminster coffers from the taxes of Scottish people. That means that Scottish taxes pay for Scottish devolved expenses.

The Scottish Government estimates that around £65 billion-£66 billion of revenues were raised in Scotland in 2019/20, equivalent to approximately £11,940-£12,060 per head.

Spend per head by region, 2019-20

North East £10,285
North West £10,204
Yorkshire and the Humber £9,401
East Midlands £8,879
West Midlands £9,570
East £8,991
London £10,835
South East £8,919
South West £9,193
England (average) £9,604
Scotland £11,566
Wales £10,929
Northern Ireland £11,987
UK (average) £9,895

As for wanting a "Queen Nicola!" What a weird idea. I have never heard even a whisper of anything of the sort, and I can't imagine any Scot wanting to turn her into any such thing.

As I Brexit supporter, maybe I’m going against the flow here but I can quite understand the intense feelings in Scotland of maybe just over half of Scottish people to want independence. I get it. David Cameron was so sure Remain would win in the referendum that he dangled that carrot in front of Scottish voters, telling them the best way to stay in the EU was to vote Remain. We all know how that ended up.

So Scottish voters, who voted to Remain now feel doubly aggrieved. I don’t blame them. Wanting independence can be a very strong emotion. I completely understand it.

It’s just that I hope they won’t leave the Union. I like that everyone on this beautiful island is a UK. it is so wonderful here, it’s the reason so many illegal immigrants want to reach these shores when they could safely stay in Europe on their long haul trip.

I do think that the island of Ireland may well re-unite. I think prosperity matters more to the younger generation there now with unfettered flow across Ireland to trade than the old mindset of sectarian divisions. We shall see in 4 years’ time.

Great post MaizieD.

I'd like to add as well that the Act of Union followed a period of famine in Scotland when the English Parliament blocked trade with Scotland unless it negotiated on Union. The English Parliament was expansionist and threatened by the ties between Scotland and other European nations, especially the Netherlands (Sound familiar?)

Union was not popular with the people but certain members of the Scottish parliament profited individually from bribery with one, the Duke of Queensbury, getting 60% of the whole monetary settlement with Scotland.

Parcel o' rogues, the lot of them.

lemongrove

I agree with you Sparkling but apparently we aren’t allowed to mention Nicola Sturgeon on this thread.
I also agree with you Dragonella in that Scottish royalty were happy to accept the throne of both countries and later to accept the Union.There was no ‘war’ forcing them into it.
There shouldn’t be a further referendum for years as the SNP promised it would be a once in a generation vote.....but if the next vote is to leave the Union the so be it, I expect they will manage and so will we.

Your grasp of history is rather tenuous, lemon.

'Scottish royalty' succeeded to the English throne by right of inheritance. It wasn't offered to them, it wasn't a case of 'acceptance', it was theirs by right. In fact, it was thought by some that James had more 'right' to it than had his predecessor as there was no question over the legitimacy of his birth.

The 'Scottish monarch' who presided over the Act of Union was also rather dodgy as she was the daughter of the legitimate, but deposed, king and ruled in place of his legitimate heir.

To add insult to injury, once queen Anne died the Scots had to accept the Hanoverian monarchy whose Stuart connection was somewhat dilute.. Not all Scots were happy about it (nor some English) ; I hope you've heard of the Jacobite Risings...

I really feel some Anglocentric arrogance showing in some of the posts on this topic. I don't, to my knowledge, have a drop of Scottish blood in me, but I feel more and more drawn to their 'cause'.

All this nonsense about 'working together' and not breaking up an already small unit is just that, nonsense.

Lemongrove re nicola sturgeon, I was hoping for an answer to my query
“ I notice a couple of comments that nicola sturgeon has been concentrating on independence etc during the pandemic. When ? Genuine question.
I’m guessing she will have mentioned it in the same way as Boris Johnson has spoken of other things than the pandemic ?

I entirely agree nanna8. The pro independence lobby is voluble and loud. It's worth attaching the illustration demonstrating the voting of the silent majority in the 'once in a generation' referendum held only 6 years ago.
I can't imagine the state Scotland would have been in without the backing of the union during this terrible time of the pandemic. Most of us are grateful for it and glad to know it was there.

I agree with you Sparkling but apparently we aren’t allowed to mention Nicola Sturgeon on this thread.
I also agree with you Dragonella in that Scottish royalty were happy to accept the throne of both countries and later to accept the Union.There was no ‘war’ forcing them into it.
There shouldn’t be a further referendum for years as the SNP promised it would be a once in a generation vote.....but if the next vote is to leave the Union the so be it, I expect they will manage and so will we.

The uk is very small, why make it even smaller? I always thought Ireland should be united because it seems ridiculous not to be but to have Scotland as a separate country seems even worse. Now I have quite a bit of Scottish blood though I have never lived there but still it would seem so hard to muck around with borders and customs and that rubbish. Good assertive politicians who don’t let the South part of the country walk all over them seems a better proposition.

I wish we could just all get on,we have more to gain by supporting and working with each other. I find Nicola Sturgeon very confrontational, she is controlled but you can sense the resentment in tone and she never misses a chance to put Engand down, Scotland has quite a large amount of money from us, if that were to stop with Independance and they completely managed their finances including National Insurance etc. How to you work out how much each individual in Scotland is owed, would try want their own Queen Nicola? I have found my friends from over the border very friendly and welcoming and not one bit bothered about Independance lots travelling here for work and family living here, there really isn't any big divide, theyvhavevtgeir wn customs and ways and that is all to the good. . A very large part of Scotland is uninhabited with far flung remote villages, I doubt life would change much for them anyway.

I'm afraid that's wrong, Dragonella. King James VIth of Scotland & Ist of England succeeded to the English throne in 1603.

Scotland and England remained separate sovereign states until the Act of Union in 1707. 100 years later. I think the Scots were rather forced into it by bankruptcy...

And that is because the last Welsh monarch had no issue, Dragonella!

I'm English, and I won't pretend to be an expert in this, but as far as I'm aware, England did not 'foist' the union on poor old Scotland. The current king of Scotland inherited the throne of England and therefore decided to join the countries together. If anything, we had Scotland foisted on us.

Yes, I accept that most of the decision-making goes on in London, but every country has a central government. Perhaps York or somewhere would be a more central location, but the decision to run the unified country from London was not a decision made by the English, but by their Scottish king.

I am not in favour of Scottish independence.

My original point was how silly it seemed to complain about the use of welsh in Wales. As though English has always been dominant, and always should be.

No-one is complaining about the use of Welsh in Wales but, as English is spoken by all but a few and only about 19% are properly bilingual, why is Welsh dominating official communications in the form of letters and telephone calls from official bodies, notices in all public buildings including the NHS and road signs?
People are finding it difficult to listen to or find the written English vital information.

My DGC learn Welsh at school as it is compulsory and the level taught to GCSE level is basic unless the children go to Welsh language schools.
We know someone whose children go to a Welsh speaking school but neither parent speaks Welsh so yes, they are struggling to help with online learning although the mother is a teacher.

Alegrias1

Flicker

@Doodledog, I heard today that Doncaster actually belongs to Scotland?
Therefore, as a Northumbrian, I am claiming dual nationality?

We can always put the border at Newcastle ? You'd be welcome to join us, I'm sure. Nice people are always welcome ?

I'd prefer it if you could put the border between County Durham and Yorkshire, please.

But joking apart, I don't feel any particular attachment to 'the union' and if Scotland wants independence then I'm perfectly happy for them to have it. It wouldn't make me feel any differently towards them and I can't see that it should cause any problems for movement between the two countries.

I have seen convincing evidence that they could be financially independent; there are huge questions over the way that money is currently allocated between Scotland and the rest of the UK, i.e. that it's rather an inexact science which favours the English over the Scots.

If they wanted their own currency it would be fine. After all, we're perfectly used to managing different currencies between countries; we'd get used to it.

I do think that with a PR system in the UK the Scots would get better representation, but they're possibly past that now.

I find it rather ironic that it's mostly Brexit supporters who appear to be against the idea of Scottish independence...

Ok, so as a Scot I’m answering the original question (having skimmed the rest of the thread after a couple of glasses of red).

I have not historically been an SNP supporter, the reason I want to have an independent Scotland has nothing to do with not liking English folks. What I object to is that my vote makes absolutely no difference in a general election because I’m Scottish. My entire country could vote for a party (let’s face it - we have done this) and that has zero bearing on how the national government represents my beliefs or needs. And that’s just basic maths.

I am not a huge SNP fan, however would (like many others I have in my circle of friends) support them to gain independence and then would evaluate the Scottish parties available for me to vote for.

I would not be be adverse to some sort of federal system. What I do object to is the national agenda being set by a posh public school boy (lets forget about May dancing through the wheat fields for a minute) whose focus is and has been for at least the last two decades Londoncentric.

Now I’m a humanitarian so I think folk in London should have a lovely life - does that reflect, resemble or affect my life up here!? No should be the answer, reality is mehhh probably it does.

I feel Scottish, British, I admire the Royal Family and I respect my neighbours down south and to the west. But every nation should (IMO) have national sovereignty. Just because there’s only 6 millionish of us doesn’t mean that our choices, voices or viewpoints are any less valid, but under our current voting system that’s how it feels to me.
I know that the same could be argued for NW England etc, but as I said before - I like my neighbours, so come on up and join us!!

I imagine road signs in Welsh first are a nightmare for European lorry drivers.

I agree Casdon. My sons had to learn through the medium of Welsh . I would have preferred the option of learning through the medium of English and having Welsh language classes.

I think we’re actually broadly in agreement Summerlove, I’m in favour of keeping the Welsh language alive, children having the opportunity to be taught in Welsh, and it being compulsory for them to learn it in school, and I’d hazard a guess most Welsh people feel the same. The difficulty comes when it’s promoted as the only option, and is by law first in every announcement, publication etc., when such a low percentage of the population have it as their first language, or wish to.

I agree completely on the road signs, it is dangerous to have Welsh first on directional signs.

I generally think the same way as you Gwyneth, but several posters today have made me think hard about how they feel.
I would be very sad to see the break up of the union but I really do feel if I were a Scot I would want independence.
I hope changes can be made so that Scotland can choose and if they choose independence they will also choose to be closely allied to the remaining nations of the union.