Scottish independence, English me would like to understand

Alegrias1

Doodledog the early medieval kingdoms of England are nothing like Scotland, sorry. Scotland was an independent country up until 1707. We started with the warlords like you say, but ended with Renaissance monarchs whose links to Europe were as close as our links to England. We had, and mostly retain, our own civil society and systems such as the legal one, which differentiates us significantly from rUK. Wessex, Mercia and so on were incorporated into England a long time ago.

Yes, I know - but my point is that it all depends on how far back you want to go, and on what you base your nationalism.

A small island like ours would be better sticking together, IMO; but that is only going to work if all regions, countries and citizens are treated equally.

I’m Welsh currently living in England albeit not too far from the Scottish border. I lived in Wales for most of my adult life and most of my family still live there. Although we are all proud of our Welsh heritage we do not want to be separated from the rest of the UK. I really don’t understand this nationalism. Surely we are stronger when we are united? It’s not as if we can’t have our own traditions, language and culture. The only reason I can come up with is that it is for political reasons and everyone wants to be ‘top dog’ . Also the consequences of separation could mean a border between Scotland and England in the event of Scotland re-joining the EU. Absolutely crazy!

Shame she was mentioned at all Lucca, I was hoping to get the feelings of us, the people of the different nations, without mention of the politicians.

Callistemon

Yes, Wales is in England.

What??

I do hope you are promoting the resurgence of indigenous American languages, Summerlove.

As I live nowhere near any areas where this is an issue, no I don’t promote it.

I certainly support it.

Casdon

I think you’re missing the point Summerlove, Welsh people, in the South at least, do not see the need for the Welsh language to be the dominant language. There’s little opposition to it being taught in school, and it’s used for things like singing the national anthem, rugby songs, hello and goodbye etc.

It’s a big leap from that to it becoming the dominant language, and most Welsh people have no desire for that to happen, and many are annoyed about it being pushed. The use of Welsh as the first language at home is a key indicator of whether it is growing as a language, and there’s little evidence to suggest that is happening. Ultimately, the political will cannot force people to do what they don’t want to in this respect in the modern world. I picked up in the Welsh news last week that parents who had sent their children to Welsh speaking primary schools (which are often very good) were complaining because they can’t help them with their homework during lockdown.

I don’t know obviously, but imagine that there are similar feelings in Scotland and Ireland about Gaelic.

Goodness. I’ve written three points all to be deleted into the ether.

Thank you for explaining your point so eloquently. I understand the frustration, for English only speakers, but I also keenly understand bilingualism and it’s need for keeping culture alive.

I also know that when a language is not the dominant one that in order to help keep bilingualism high, or get it there, you need to be constantly exposed to it. Hence street signs and television.

My original point was how silly it seemed to complain about the use of welsh in Wales. As though English has always been dominant, and always should be.

Doodledog the early medieval kingdoms of England are nothing like Scotland, sorry. Scotland was an independent country up until 1707. We started with the warlords like you say, but ended with Renaissance monarchs whose links to Europe were as close as our links to England. We had, and mostly retain, our own civil society and systems such as the legal one, which differentiates us significantly from rUK. Wessex, Mercia and so on were incorporated into England a long time ago.

Very interesting thread.
I notice a couple of comments that nicola sturgeon has been concentrating on independence etc during the pandemic. When ? Genuine question.
I’m guessing she will have mentioned it in the same way as Boris Johnson has spoken of other things than the pandemic ?

lemongrove

I always assumed that you were American Summerlove,
From something or other you once said. We do seem to have a few posters from across the pond nowadays, which is nice.

Not american thank goodness. What a mess it is there

Flicker

@Doodledog, I heard today that Doncaster actually belongs to Scotland?
Therefore, as a Northumbrian, I am claiming dual nationality?

We can always put the border at Newcastle ? You'd be welcome to join us, I'm sure. Nice people are always welcome ?

@Doodledog, I heard today that Doncaster actually belongs to Scotland?
Therefore, as a Northumbrian, I am claiming dual nationality?

Flicker, I know what you mean, and agree with you.

If we are going to base loyalties on history then there used to be numerous kingdoms, Mercia, Wessex, Cumbria, Northumbria and so on - the same in what is now Scotland and Wales. Each led by someone who was basically a gang leader with an army of bully boys behind him. The ones who won drew up borders and boundaries of 'their' land.

Why people now feel that they 'belong' to the land that is within these boundaries is illogical, although it is clearly an emotional and deeply felt tie.

A sensible government would be trying to unite the UK (and this includes all the regions in all nations, and bringing us all together - particularly as we have now cut ourselves off from Europe.

@Alegrias1 I appreciate everything you have said, and I know I am a lone voice, but I honestly do not understand why we have to have so much distrust, disparity, dislike......
I know you are an independent country, i just do not know whynwe cannot all rub along together. We all inhabit a relatively small,island. Wecare not a far flung and disparate state. We all speak the same language ( broadly speaking......), we mostly have the same aims and attitudes.
I live a few miles south of the border. I feel disenfranchised. I feel abandoned, living up,here in the north.
I have no doubt my counterparts in Devon, Blackpool, Birmingham and Norfolk will feel the same.
But, as a small island, why can we not pull,together? Why do we always have to push each other away? Why do we create difficulties, why do we believe every difficulty every transgression is personal to us ?

I think I am probably a 'hug a bunny' type of person. I just hate the current culture that pits nation against nation, young against old, rich against poor and London against the rest......

Anyhow, bestvwishes to everyone, and lets hope for a happier 2021?

I'll be nice Flicker seeing as you've had a G&T ?.

We're not one country. Scotland has been an independent country and remains different from the rest of the UK in important ways. We were not conquered and entered into a Union voluntarily (sort of). It's been a long time since Yorkshire or Kendall had their own legal, health or educational systems, if ever.

I can't speak for other parts of the UK but most people I know who want independence don't want it because we dislike anybody else, it's because we want to stand in our own two feet.

And don't get me started on Nicola Sturgeon bringing up Scottish independence at a time like this.

When I see things like this, first I get angry and then I get disappointed. I don't know where people get this but as so many people have said upthread, Nicola has hardly mentioned independence since this whole pandemic disaster started. But the unionist press keep trying to say it's her only focus, because it suits their agenda.

And then, do you all think that we only think about independence when Nicola reminds us it's a thing? Give us some credit.

I dont post much here, at all, I am a lurker ?
But, and sorry - this is going to be hard to follow (G&Ts have been taken), these sort of posts really upset me.
Am I weird, and alone, and also basically stupid when I say that to me, we are one country? England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland?
I know that people are disillusioned. I am. So, can the North East of England ( say from York to Berwick) have a vote for independence? Because we get as much attention and care as Scotland or Wales do. I would hazard a guess that goes for Cornwell and Kendal too.
Anywhere outside of London feels neglected.
London probably does too ?
We are one country. We should be supporting each other, not ripping bits out of each other.
There are loads I admire from all around the regions.
I actually think Nichola Sturgeon is fab - so shoot me.
I admire the Welsh government for their stance on covid and school reopenings.
Northern Ireland is cr*pped on from a great height continuously, yet continues to be a wonderful, welcoming community.
England is disparate. Just as much
as the other nations. We all think we are neglected, underfunded, ignored.
We are being driven apart at the very time we should be drawing together.
I wonder why? And who is orchestrating this, well, almost dislike of each other?
This discomfort is being fostered, it is not intrinsic. We all need to be pulling together, not pulling apart.

That was awful Anniebach, the sort of brainless nonsense that causes disharmony.

There are problems with both scenarios Molly I have friends who live abroad who dont want Independnece because they want Scotland to "be the same when /if they decide to come home * I also have friends living overseas who think the opposite .One friend in Spain is concerned his PENSION will be lost if we get Independence ,his sons who still live here are both members of the SNP.As someone up thread said though its NOT about the SNP .they are the vehicle to get us over the line and they have worked their socks off over the past two decades to make it not just possible but probable.Its bigger than one person or one party ,when we do get our country back in our control there will I'm sure be Scottish Labour and Conservatives etc.Its a country that has people of all parties and none so that wont change.The big difference being when it says Scottish Labour it will be ...not registered and run from London but Scottish working FOR us not against us .
We're not bu any means odd ...there are many countries who "left the broad shoulders of the UK ( DAVID CAMERON SPEAK) And NONE of them have ever come crawling back because it went wrong .Wont be any different for us...well it might because independence isn't NEW its something we we've had before ...before we were sold for English gold

I really hope Scotland stays in the union. I am Welsh, but hate all this devolved stuff. I much prefer to be one country. I'm also a remainer. I never wanted to leave Europe. I believe we're stronger all together. And don't get me started on Nicola Sturgeon bringing up Scottish independence at a time like this.

I so remember being in Moorfields Eye Hospital on a St.David’s Day, naturally wearing a Daff, someone said
‘They want home rule but still want to use our hospitals, they
should bugger off back to taffy world’

My grandchildren do not have the feelings for the English which I did in my 20’s, thank heaven

I think Scotland should be allowed a referendum. Those who live in Scotland should be allowed to vote.
I’m not sure about those who are full time residents in other areas of the UK. They would be voting for something that doesn't directly affect them, and then there would be endless rows about ‘Scotland won independence thanks to non residents’ and ‘Scotland lost the referendum because of non-residents.’
I’d be interested to know what Scots residents and non-residents think about the right to vote.

Callistemon

Yes, Wales is in England.

.......or very close by ?

It certainly does Anniebach, beautiful word.

Yes, Wales is in England.

You’re right JaneAinsworth I do only know two English people, same family, who have said this but several Americans and a few Australians. Still causes resentment. We had Australian friends staying with us in Anglesey who told friends on the phone that they were staying with friends in England!

Laura I was making the point that many English people refer to her as queen of England as do most Americans and many Australians. Not very inclusive

I can honestly say I’ve never heard an English person refer to HM as ‘the Queen of England’.
Why would they? She’s just the Queen.

I have heard Americans refer to her in that way, but English people can hardly be blamed for that.