Scottish independence, English me would like to understand

I feel obliged to come back as I started this thread and have read with interest.
There seem to be good and bad points from all sides and my personal views have swayed to and fro.
Good to see mature discussion and a fair bit of humour although not all of it intended.
I knew very little of Scots/English history and have sadly only ventured north of the border twice, a wedding in Oban when we stayed a week to explore wonderful scenery and a fabulous weekend in Edinburgh where we watched the Military Tattoo. We had intended to repeat the latter awesome experience for their 50th anniversary but sadly covid got in the way.
One day soon hopefully.

We're quite good at dealing with pipers and tunes in Scotland.

The EU has very little control over the sovereign countries it encompasses?! Paddyanne, I can't seriously credit it that you honestly believe that. While I can understand wanting to be independent and going your own way, joining the EUSSR is crazy. What about the treatment of Greece? the total disrepect shown only this week to Eire, the referendums, either ignored or re run to get the correct result, the stranglehold on Switzerland? I would think all Scotland would be looking forward to is years of the EU insisting on reducing that GDP (austerity) using the Euro, insisting on a hard border, paid for by Scotland and generally interfering in every aspect of Scottish life. Pipers and tunes comes to mind.

Of course Alegrias1 appreciated your joke!
I’m sure the Scots do punch above their weight, it was just the wild statement that they are responsible for just about every major invention that has come out of the UK that made me laugh - even the most diehard Scot would surely agree that can’t possibly be the case.

My comment about Trump was a joke too, I hope that's how everyone read it.

1/4 of those people were Scots; proportion of English to Scots population today 12:1. We still punch above our weight

(joke, joke...!)

Here’s one list of the best British inventions:
home.bt.com/tech-gadgets/tech-features/8-british-inventions-that-changed-the-world-11363949058351
Of course there are some world changing amazing inventions by Scots, but honestly - that was the best laugh for me all day!

Aaaarrrghh!

I know, he kept talking about it when he was here. No country is perfect. Although some come close

Alegrias1

Posted for a joke, before anyone gets annoyed....

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzMBvXvilSY

Elvis Presley's ancestors were from Aberdeenshire. The Beatles played their first gig with electric guitars in Peterhead. Still working on Nelson Mandela .....

Donald Trump's ancestors were Scottish!

Paddyanne You ask me the question- what exactly is it about English rule that you think is better than Independence?
The thing is I believe I voted for an MP in a British parliament so therefore the parliament covers some of our needs and in addition I voted for an MSP so that covers devolved matters. I am pro EU but I don't think we have any chance at all of rejoining in the event of gaining independence and I feel being told this could happen is a bit like the Brexit bus story all over again. I agree there have been many famous Scots but there have also been talented people from all four nations and I certainly don't think people generally think of the Scottish people in the manner you mention. We have to look at the present and not to the past. I outlined previously why I feel we have a good life here in Scotland one which many south of the border would desire. I feel Brexit has caused a lot of pain, much of which is still surfacing. Why would I wish this similar situation on our nation. Let's be kind to our neighbours. Let's get through the pandemic and draw a breath. Then maybe the debate could start again.

Alegrias1 ?

Posted for a joke, before anyone gets annoyed....

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzMBvXvilSY

Elvis Presley's ancestors were from Aberdeenshire. The Beatles played their first gig with electric guitars in Peterhead. Still working on Nelson Mandela .....

Casdon

Paddyanne your last sentence was so outrageous that it made me laugh out loud, people won’t take anything you say seriously if you make wild statements like that.

Let's start a list (warning this could go on for some time)

1. Bank of England
2.

I have been reading but not posting on this thread as Scottish Politics would/could never be my Mastermind subject, but your last sentence Paddyanne made me laugh out loud!

You will be claiming Nelson Mandela, The Beatles and Elvis Presley next (yes I do know that Elvis did set foot on Scots soil) were true Scots.

Paddyanne your last sentence was so outrageous that it made me laugh out loud, people won’t take anything you say seriously if you make wild statements like that.

The British government is in fact an English government surely most of you realise that ? Brexit was English nationalism at its best /worst .Being in the EU for Scotland is totally different to being in the UK .The EU has very little control over the sovereign countries it encompasses ,WM on the other hand has huge power over us .
Devolution by its very name is just power retained by another ,England .We are "allowed" a tiny input in affairs in our own country and WM takes control of everything else.IF they were dong a great job I could understand why some would be happy to be ruled by them ,but lets face it they have labelled Scotland as scrounging whinging drunks and lost causes for decades while raiding our coffers for their vanity projects ,dumped nuclear waste in our waters and denied us democracy .
Dustyhen what exactly is it about English rule that you think is better than Independence? Haven't WM said all the same lies about EVERY country that gained their freedom from the chins of the "british" government ,none of the many have ever come back ..and most if not all have flourished when not having their funds raided for things like HS2 or London sewers etc etc etc .
I understand that tehEnglish people on here thing they havethe best the most Democratic system in the world.Sadly you've been conned ,if the EU was undemocratic then have a closer look at the HOUSE OF LORDS brimming with pals and folk who gave backhanders to geta job for life .Not MY idea of democracy !
Can you remember that it was SCOTS who made the inventions the innovations the discoveries and just about everything else that MADE the Uk great .Why not do the same things for ourselves

you can't look at every SNP vote and say it is one for independence.

Agreed DustyHen2010 The opposite of that is that when some people talk about why they don't want independence they immediately point out the shortcomings of our current SNP government, which is not an argument at all.

An anecdote about conflict in 2014. I was reluctant to put my "Yes" sticker on my car in case I got targeted. But after a while I realised that we were really having a grown up conversation and that any unpleasantness was confined to a tiny minority on both sides. That said I got a lot of "robust" comments about my support for independence so it works both ways. I'm easily led, stupid, heart rules my head, living in the past, hate the English etc. The last one always amused my English-born DH....

I'm sure that there will be more reports like the LSE's as we go forward.

Alegrias1

DustyHen2010 I agree that a vote for the SNP is not a vote for independence. I fact I think I've said that a couple of times above. But I don't think anyone who votes SNP doesn't know that they are voting for a party who wants independence, so they shouldn't be surprised if that's what their MSP/MP talks about.

Regarding the LSE study, I haven't read the whole thing but it basically says if all the trade with England you currently have is gone, then everybody will be worse off.

No consideration to the removal of costs for things we don't want, (e.g. Trident), no consideration of new tax raising powers etc. Even the normally Union supporting BBC said:
What the report does not tell you are the directions or strengths of other dynamics that could be expected with independence such as business investment, inward investment, migration, changes to tax policy or to productivity or a potential change of currency.

Project Fear part II - The Empire Strikes Back

Certainly it is known that an SNP candidate will have independence at the core of their policies and all I was saying was that you can't look at every SNP vote and say it is one for independence. As I mentioned before usually the pro Union voters are quiet about their feelings as it can cause a bit of conflict among groups. I saw that at the previous referendum when one lady I know talked constantly about historical events and why those who didn't agree with her on independence were fools. Eventually the majority in the group kept quiet.
Re LSE report. I expect there will be further analysis of this ongoing and more studies coming out.

My favourite blogger has a take on the LSE report:

It's worth a read, though I think the link says it all...

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2021/02/04/the-lse-report-on-the-increased-costs-in-trade-for-an-independent-scotland-is-based-on-unsubstantiated-data-and-absurd-assumptions/

DustyHen2010 I agree that a vote for the SNP is not a vote for independence. I fact I think I've said that a couple of times above. But I don't think anyone who votes SNP doesn't know that they are voting for a party who wants independence, so they shouldn't be surprised if that's what their MSP/MP talks about.

Regarding the LSE study, I haven't read the whole thing but it basically says if all the trade with England you currently have is gone, then everybody will be worse off.

No consideration to the removal of costs for things we don't want, (e.g. Trident), no consideration of new tax raising powers etc. Even the normally Union supporting BBC said:
What the report does not tell you are the directions or strengths of other dynamics that could be expected with independence such as business investment, inward investment, migration, changes to tax policy or to productivity or a potential change of currency.

Project Fear part II - The Empire Strikes Back

One comment and one question. On looking back in this post some posters are saying a vote for an SNP candidate is a vote for independence. That is not always the case. In some areas a candidate may be involved in issues pertaining to the local area which outweigh what party they stand for. I do know people who vote for the SNP candidate who would not want independence so the two do not necessarily go together (and we are not in an area with any specific issues). In some instances the other candidates are so lacking what do you do. Not vote?
Sorry that comment ended with a question!
My question is to those who are pro independence. The LSE study came out recently showing that individuals in Scotland would be thousands worse off in the event of independence even if we were allowed back in the EU. Why shouldn't I believe that study? Thanks

We will find out pretty soon where the land is lying I think, interesting times ahead for sure - I think we’ll be in a different place in six months, one way or another. Federalism will be good for the English regions, whatever happens for Scotland in my opinion.

I'd be delighted if the government doesn't see out its term, but the main opposition party isn't too keen on Scottish independence, either...though he's proposing a far more federal arrangement and more devolution to the regions.

Just my thoughts, obviously but I think the post COVID slump in the economy worldwide, people increasingly waking up to the impact on the environment of the way we have been living and conducting our business, and Britain’s diminishing post-Brexit status and influence will force societal and political change within the next few years. I’d be surprised if this government sees out its term.

This sounds quite exciting Casdon. I wonder what you are thinking will change?