Does this government see something positive in us having Covid in the country?

Growstuff Thanks for the link. Like many others I was aware of the told by Johnson but to hear of the link to journalists and the lies was truly shocking. A very good discussion.

I was in the NHS then, and known COVID positive patients weren’t discharged to care homes, certainly where I worked, but patients were discharged who were found to be COVID positive after their discharge, because there weren’t the testing facilities available for them to be tested before they left hospital. NHS staff would not deliberately endanger people by discharging to a care home in a known to be unsafe fashion, even if it was a government instruction.

I believe NHS England instructions were for trusts to discharge medically fit patients to care homes as soon as it was clinically safe to do so, back in March 2020. I’m not sure how that came to mean COVID positive patients, or who would have decided they were ‘clinically safe’
So no, I don’t think any of the dubious decisions were with the deliberate aim of killing off the elderly.

MaizieD

I have read a lot of Oborne's articles, but this said more.
I was particularly struck by Oborne saying that he has spoken to senior tories who deny that Johnson is telling lies. Chilling echoes of the GOP and Trump...

It's a fascinating item, but, sadly, the people who really ought to be viewing it are those who are the least likely.

On a different tack (but related to the statement I've just made) here's a an article about 'The lies we tell ourselves' that's worth a read:

www.linkedin.com/pulse/lies-we-tell-ourselves-james-patrick/?published=t

Excellent article.

WW010

growstuff

Maizie (and others) This is an interesting discussion with Peter Oborne and Owen Jones:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlHzwtFNleQ

Thanks for the share. It’s very interesting listening. We’re being led by big business then really. The ‘government’ are just the front men. I don’t know how we get away from this now. Maisie is right. I personally feel powerless these days as very few people seem interested in what’s happening to our country. I think many were so disillusioned and fed up over Brexit - whatever side you were on - that they’ve given up.

I also think we've been told so many lies and journalists shy away from finding the truth that people have become immune to all the untruths and manipulation of facts. It's almost like real government has become a soap and people accept the unbelievable.

Thank you for the Peter Osborne interview. It was chilling, even though we know what has been happening. Two people, one from the left, one from the old right having such an in depth conversation.

One small step for democracy?

Wow. That’s a good but scary article. Thanks Maizie.

I have read a lot of Oborne's articles, but this said more.
I was particularly struck by Oborne saying that he has spoken to senior tories who deny that Johnson is telling lies. Chilling echoes of the GOP and Trump...

It's a fascinating item, but, sadly, the people who really ought to be viewing it are those who are the least likely.

On a different tack (but related to the statement I've just made) here's a an article about 'The lies we tell ourselves' that's worth a read:

www.linkedin.com/pulse/lies-we-tell-ourselves-james-patrick/?published=t

growstuff

Maizie (and others) This is an interesting discussion with Peter Oborne and Owen Jones:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlHzwtFNleQ

Thanks for the share. It’s very interesting listening. We’re being led by big business then really. The ‘government’ are just the front men. I don’t know how we get away from this now. Maisie is right. I personally feel powerless these days as very few people seem interested in what’s happening to our country. I think many were so disillusioned and fed up over Brexit - whatever side you were on - that they’ve given up.

Maizie (and others) This is an interesting discussion with Peter Oborne and Owen Jones:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlHzwtFNleQ

My FIL was in a care home run by one of the service charities. Whilst he was there the building was altered to provide different tiers of care and also to allow women. Because it was a well known charity it had money thrown at it. It was given a minibus for outings and front seat tickets for Wimbledon and various other top sporting events.

As my mother had been in a care home for several years with Alzheimers I was aware of the difference in the facilities and activities provided and thought that it was a great pity that some of the money spent on this particular home was not diverted to other care homes. And I'm not talking about the actual charity funds which obviously could only be used by that particular charity.

The home that my mother was in was run by a young couple - she was a pyscho geriatric nurse and I'm not sure what her husband did. It was well run and the residents well looked after. After a few years we received a phone call asking us to go to the home for a meeting. It transpired that the couple had not paid any rent to the owner of the building (he himself ran a few care homes) and the bailiffs had been called to evict the couple. The home had quite a lot of land attached and the couple had horses and expensive cars. Apparently they didn't realise they were doing anything wrong.

The building owner took over the running of the home, the staff remained and the residents were unaware of any disruption. The staff were low paid but very kind. When I received a call to say that my mum had pneumonia and wasn't expected to last the night I went over to see her. I stayed with her and my sister arrived the next day. We stayed in the home for 8 days, by her bedside, taking it in turns to sleep on the settees in the day room at night.

The staff were very kind to us during that period and I'm sure they went above and beyond the call of duty. Sadly I think that some owners behave differently.

Franbern

I didn’t say more of a mess. What I actually said was they’d have made just as much a mess.

The meaning is different, as I’m sure you’ll agree.

Yes,I do think they have got away with to much,no one is effectively holding them to account.

This is what everyone who is horrified by this government is saying, Dorsetcupcake61, but to coin a phrase, they hold all the cards.

They have an unassailable majority in Parliament of MPs who are prepared to nod through any legislation the government proposes without even bothering to scrutinise it (and who have voted away much of the legislature's powers anyway). They ignore the findings and recommendations of Parliamentary Select Committees (the real scrutinising bodies) and have found that they can do precisely whatever they want to do with complete impunity.

The media, which have had an historic role in criticising governments and exposing lies and corruption, are mostly complicit and spin the government line; even, we suspect, to the extent of influencing the government line. Why is Murdoch having regular meetings with the PM and with Ministers?

They are not losing ground in the polls and we can see, just on Gnet alone, which must have hundreds of registered posters but only a handful of us are showing any concern, that most voters have no concerns about the appalling death toll from covid, or the utter mess that is Brexit.

As far as I can see, the only effective action is that being taken by the Good Law Project, which is taking them to judicial review over some of the PPE contracts. They are scaring the government, which is ramping up their defence costs to well above those which are normal for judicial reviews, in the hope that they can scare off the GLP with the threat of bankrupting them if the review goes against them and they have to pay government costs.

( www.crowdjustice.com/case/a-river-to-my-people/ if anyone wants to contribute)

If anyone has any suggestions for effective action I'm sure we'd be pleased to hear them... and implement them.

Sadly Lillie it seems to be an international problem and it would be wonderful to think someone somewhere would be evaluating how we treat our most vulnerable citizens. It often feels that despite many decades of legislation to protect groups of people when you scratch just beneath the surface very little really changes.

Dorsetcupcake I agree with your insightful summary of carehomes. They are big business for the owners and their objective is very often to open more establishments so that administration can be centralised, thus saving them more money. It isn't unusual for owners to drive big cars, have expensive holidays and send their kids to private schools.

I also agree that the vaccine roll out, although I disagree with its order, was a PR exercise for the government. There was no way they could have left care homes to struggle after the debacle last year and they needed to appease them in some way.

And yes, there are many people with disabilities and other problems who are too far down the line in comparison.

So true Franbern?

I totally agree Pippa. I'm sorry for your loss. My parents died a couple of years ago. Initially they had home carers and when my mum died dad moved in with me. Both my daughters and I are very glad they weren't around for Covid,they were so vulnerable it would have been terrifying.
There are a few interesting articles in the Guardian about people with disabilities both physical and learning who seem far down the list for vaccines which is concerning.
It could be they underestimated the nature of the virus initially, although tbh anyone looking at the actions China were taking could see it was something more than flu.
This time last year I was working in a care home as was my daughter. My care home was part of a small group owned by one person. It was clean and the food was reasonable etc. There is certainly no questioning the dedication of the staff on the ground floor. Sadly it is about the money though. Things that could be replaced or would improve quality of life a bit beyond were rarely quickly forthcoming. Every penny was saved and in my time there the company acquired another two homes. You really dont want to see the owners Instagram account, very nice life. Residents are loved by staff on the ground floor,but it's a business. My daughter works in a care home run by a national chain. Its owned by share holders who also invest in pizza restaurants etc.
I think they made a massive mistake with care homes,even at the time I knew that Matt Hancocks protective circle was an outright lie.
It could be that many care homes close. Residents were first on list for vaccines which I suspect was a,PR exercise for the government as they have in reality more or less left them to it for a year.
It seems that the recent announcement about restructuring NHS was very quiet about social care despite Johnson's comment he would fix the problems.
Yes,I do think they have got away with to much,no one is effectively holding them to account.

Franbern. ???????SO true.

maddyone

I’m absolutely sure that had any other government been in power, they’d have made just a much a mess of it.

Not sure what 'more of mess' could actually be. As UK has one of the highest death rates and one of the worst economic outcomes!!!!

Before anyone talks about the success of the vaccine roll-out, just to day that, Thank Goodness, that is being done via the NHS. Had it been down to the government, than doubtlessly it would have been 'given out' as a contract at vast cost, to one of their mates who had no knowledge of health or mass vaccinations and would have been another total expensive disaster.

In another two days, it will be a year since my mother died. During that time the best many have been able to say, and say because they loved her, is "thank heavens she didn't live through this". I am quite sure that the need wish away any extra time she might have had with us is what adds to my questioning of the government's motives.

Writing his daily email, in an article about the proposed changes to the NHS, Richard Murphy suggests that his greatedest concern is that he has lost faith in the good faith of ministers, from whom acceptable behaviour can no longer be assumed the norm. He asks if, therefore this government might have, in consequence, achieved its aim by destroying confidence in government itself.

I think that is my feeling about the governments handling of Covid. Their behaviour no longer needs to be acceptable - just what they can get away with including lies and obfuscation where it will help them. They no longer need to even pretend to care, just joke at the expense of any who question them. How can we believe that anything they do is for the greater good anymore? How can I believe that their policy on Covid was ever for the greater good?

Witzend

Any reduction in the pension budget will only be short term though - younger people do tend to get older!

As for ‘clearing the decks’ (care home managers) I’ve been very familiar with several care homes over the years - my DM, FiL and an aunt (dementia) and an aunt of dh (no dementia but frail.).
And I can’t imagine any of the managers of those homes saying any such thing. My impression of all of them was of very good, kind staff doing their best for the residents.

I am sure they are - no offence intended. All I can say is it was seen as an uncomfortable truism. Something thought but not openly said maybe. And it was years ago tbf. Times change.

A reminder of what Patrick Vallance was saying exactly 11 months ago:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51865915?at_medium=custom7&at_custom2=twitter&at_custom3=%40BBCr4today&at_campaign=64&at_custom4=FA0A3C40-6505-11EA-B669-06F4C28169F1&at_custom1=%5Bpost+type%5D

At that stage, it was still referred to as "flu" and the intention was to let infection run rife amongst the population to achieve "herd immunity".

Any reduction in the pension budget will only be short term though - younger people do tend to get older!

There are fewer younger people though. We're known as the baby boomers for a reason.

The 'saving on pensions' aspect is a very sick 'opinion', but I believe it came from the tory propaganda sheet, the Daily Telegraph. While one might say it as a form of black humour it's disgusting that anyone should have seriously thought it a 'bonus' of covid.

Any reduction in the pension budget will only be short term though - younger people do tend to get older!

As for ‘clearing the decks’ (care home managers) I’ve been very familiar with several care homes over the years - my DM, FiL and an aunt (dementia) and an aunt of dh (no dementia but frail.).
And I can’t imagine any of the managers of those homes saying any such thing. My impression of all of them was of very good, kind staff doing their best for the residents.

However much anyone loathes this government, I fail to understand how they could imagine that COVID is seen as a positive!