Heartless Britain - will attitudes ever change?

Alegrias1

I'm quite amazed actually at the response that this can't be right because its only a survey and its probably biased. That's something society should be bothered about . The inability to discriminate between propaganda and academic research.

I'm not in the slightest bit amazed. How often have "experts" been dismissed or undermined? Academics all live in an ivory tower, don't they?

The Conservatives are waging a culture war and this is the kind of info they use. I find it quite frightening.

And, yes, they have boffins who know very well how to blur the lines between propaganda and serious research.

Alegrias1

I'm quite amazed actually at the response that this can't be right because its only a survey and its probably biased. That's something society should be bothered about . The inability to discriminate between propaganda and academic research.

Three well respected institutions undertook this research and wrote the report.

'King’s College London is one of the oldest and most prestigious universities in England, ranked 31st in the world (QS World University Rankings 2021). A leading research university, it has an outstanding reputation for world-class teaching and cutting-edge research. With five campuses in the heart of London, it offers students a cosmopolitan setting with superb access to the academic, cultural and social riches of the city.' www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/universities/kings-college-london-university-of-london#:~:text=King%E2%80%99s%20College%20London%20is%20one%20of%20the%20oldest,outstanding%20reputation%20for%20world-class%20teaching%20and%20cutting-edge%20research.

Why would this institution produce risk its reputation by producing propaganda?

This survey was conducted through a YouGov's poll which are considered accurate. Mainly due to how they select the people to be questioned.

I've had a brief look at this report. The figures to do with perceptions on why people think they have lost their jobs needs to be seen in context. They are also just 2 questions out of nearly 60 asked.

Whilst not reading the whole report, I have looked at quite a few graphs. The survey was about inequalities and one question was "whether or not the pollsters thought COVID crisis would have an impact on inequality". Attached is the result.

It is not just this survey finding out what impact the crisis has had. Not so long ago a review was published and mentioned on a thread here. Build Back Fairer: The Covid-19 Marmot Review. The levels of social, environmental and economic inequality in society.

This survey and the report show that in four main areas a huge % of people consider inequality will get worse.

I wonder if the present government or next one will address inequality in future reforms. The Marmot review goes further than doing surveys, it also offers suggestions. I have little faith that the current one.

Vampirequeen I'm worried now that I didn't make it clear enough that I don't think that this is propaganda, I think its a well designed piece of research that some people seem prepared to dismiss just because its a "survey".

PamelaJ1, same here. I’ve almost stopped doing those gov.U.K. surveys, because so often there’s no answer that reflects my views - not even a ‘none of the above’.
The only option is often ‘don’t know’, which would not be true.

muse The Equalities Minister hadn't even heard of the Marmot Review or the subsequent review, when she was questioned in the House of Commons.

Total sample size was 2,226 adults. Fieldwork was undertaken between 11th - 12th November 2020. The survey was carried out online. The figures have been
weighted and are representative of GB adults (aged 18+) with respect to vote in the 2019 general election and EU referendum, age, gender, education level, attention paid to politics and region.
I think if a professor, 3 PhDs and a research assistant carried it out, then it has serious validity.

I am happy to accept YouGov surveys, but as *muse& points out, it has to be seen in the context of the whole survey and its purpose.

Its like all those headlines some people get when someone takes a phrase from something someone says and makes shock horror headlines of it (usually to malign them) when if you read the original speech, in context, the poor unfortunate condemned one said just the opposite.

Link below to YouGov who did the survey for Kings College.

YouGov specialises in market research and opinion polling through online methods. The company's methodology involves obtaining responses from an invited group of Internet users, and then weighting these responses in line with demographic information.

yougov.co.uk/about/panel-methodology/research-qs/

When challenged by Mary Kelly Foy, Badenoch (the Equalities Minister) said she wasn't familiar with the original review or the update. I can't find the video of their exchange, but this was the first part of the letter Foy wrote to Badenoch.

M0nica

I am happy to accept YouGov surveys, but as *muse& points out, it has to be seen in the context of the whole survey and its purpose.

Its like all those headlines some people get when someone takes a phrase from something someone says and makes shock horror headlines of it (usually to malign them) when if you read the original speech, in context, the poor unfortunate condemned one said just the opposite.

The purpose would appear to be to provide the IFS with serious data for five years of research. I have no doubt they will use other data.

I wonder why people are so keen to dismiss it. I've seen exactly the same attitudes on GN and other social media.

"Levelling up" was one of the Conservatives' battle cries at the last election. Why wouldn't anybody need data to know exactly what they're talking about?

Sadly, too many people dismiss reports, however carefully and scientifically carried out they are ( like the one being discussed here), if they don't accord with their own views. I visited the 'Ask Boris Johnson a question' FB page, and wished that I hadn't. The number of people blaming the Kent variant of covid19 on 'illegal immigrants', still people are moaning about benefit tourism despite the rules, the regulations, the FACTS of what people actually receive ( £35 a week), posters complaining about 'illegals' being put up in 4* hotels. It doesn't matter how valiantly a few of us try to get the truth across, there are thousands who will still believe what they read in certain newspapers, or are told by disgusting people like Farage. People dismiss anything that doesn't fit in with their idea of how things are or should be, to do otherwise would be to admit that you are wrong/have been deceived for political purposes, and nobody wants to do that.

"Levelling up" was one of the Conservatives' battle cries at the last election. Why wouldn't anybody need data to know exactly what they're talking about?

I think it's because we've had quite enough of experts, thank you. Especially when they tell us things we don't want to hear...

I often wonder how people manage to make decisions and judgements without any creditable information at all.

(That was actually a very potent phrase, 'enough of experts'. I think that our government is using it as a guiding philosophy with the approval of very many voters.)

Very well said GillT57. I agree with everything you've written so eloquently.

growstuff

Very well said GillT57. I agree with everything you've written so eloquently.

So do I. ??

people dismiss anything that doesn't fit in with their idea of how things are or should be, to do otherwise would be to admit that you are wrong/have been deceived for political purposes, and nobody wants to do that.

This happens so much in RL and of course on GN.

growstuff

EllanVannin

You've only to look at the state pension to realise that it's never been increased to a level of the rising costs of everything since the 80's.

Actually, the state pension has increased more than working age benefits have.

Your statement does not negate EllanVannin's growstuff. We still have very poor pensions.

growstuff

Very well said GillT57. I agree with everything you've written so eloquently.

So do I. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that, if I want to read unfounded opinions I could read the Dail Heil. As I am not going to do that I wonder why I am reading similar unfounded opinions on Gransnet - although noticabley less and less frequently.

it was written by Kings College Policy Institute in conjunction with the Institute for Fiscal Studies and UK in a Changing World. Pretty good credentials I would have thought.
Would this be the same site as the one, King's College London, which sent out more than 1,000 emails from fictitious people worried about finances during the pandemic to MPs, consuming more than 650 hours of caseworkers time, to see if certain occupations and party affiliations had an impact on MPs' responses.
Professor Rosie Campbell. Professor of Politics, has apologised for 'misjudging' the impact on the workload.
Pretty good credentials??

PippaZ

growstuff

EllanVannin

You've only to look at the state pension to realise that it's never been increased to a level of the rising costs of everything since the 80's.

Actually, the state pension has increased more than working age benefits have.

Your statement does not negate EllanVannin's growstuff. We still have very poor pensions.

I didn't deny it, but working age benefits are a pittance compared with the state pension.

eazybee

*it was written by Kings College Policy Institute in conjunction with the Institute for Fiscal Studies and UK in a Changing World. Pretty good credentials I would have thought*.
Would this be the same site as the one, King's College London, which sent out more than 1,000 emails from fictitious people worried about finances during the pandemic to MPs, consuming more than 650 hours of caseworkers time, to see if certain occupations and party affiliations had an impact on MPs' responses.
Professor Rosie Campbell. Professor of Politics, has apologised for 'misjudging' the impact on the workload.
Pretty good credentials??

Nice smear eazybee. Anything constructive to add?

Alegrias1

Vampirequeen I'm worried now that I didn't make it clear enough that I don't think that this is propaganda, I think its a well designed piece of research that some people seem prepared to dismiss just because its a "survey".

Sorry I misunderstood.

The pompous assumption that those posters with one opinion must be academics and the rest not, is very wide of the mark.
It is easy to see who the actual academics are as opposed to the would-be academics, in spite of their belief, by the way that they argue their point.
To call in to question the validity of a survey or the word of an expert is to have an open mind.
In a court of law the defence will call an expert witness, well respected in their field. The prosecution will call an expert witness, well respected in the same field who will dispute the testimony of the first. Our scientists who are advising our government in respect of the pandemic quite often disagree with the other’s point of view. Economists are often far apart in their views hence left and right government economic policy.
Surveys are most often based on opinion. Opinion is gleaned from what we listen to, what we read, our background and much more. A survey of several thousand people will throw up different results to the same survey conducted with a different few thousand.
Surveys often have loaded questions at worst, at best they don’t allow for variables.
Even such a thing as poverty is perceived differently dependent on a persons own experience of poverty.
I feel, as a nation, we are mostly well aware of the inequality which surrounds us and, as a nation, we care but our perception of how it should be judged and how it should be dealt with will vary according to our opinion.
I therefore back the point of view of Pantglas “there are more good people in the UK than there are good surveys”. It is naive to think otherwise and naive to think that because a group of academics interpret a survey one way, another group may not interpret another way.

Did you actually read the full document which I posted LauraNorder? Which questions in the survey would you consider to be loaded?