Shamina Begum

Firecracker123

Well The Supreme Court rules she can't return. That's British Justice working.

Respected barrister, David Allen Green, suggests that the Supreme Court may have given undue weight to the wishes of the Home Secretary in this case, when in fact it is the duty of judges to interpret the law without bias.

This is a blog about another case where this principle applies.

Allen Green proposes to write a series of blogs on the Shamina Begum case. The non judgemental might find it interesting to follow them.

davidallengreen.com/2021/02/in-this-country-amid-the-clash-of-arms-the-laws-are-not-silent-judges-are-no-respecters-the-story-of-when-a-law-lord-in-1941-stood-up-for-the-rights-of-an-individual-against-a-home-secretary/

She doesn't need to return to the UK to fight her case so she can stay where she is. Even now, I believe her views are the same as the day she left.

Thanks for the link MaizieD. I particularly enjoyed the Churchill quote about injustice

I will not make judgement on Shamima Begum returning.
She was a British citizen and at 15 years old did she fully understand what she was getting herself into. I completely detest all what ISIS stands for and the torture and death that went with that way of life is horrendous.
I look at at her as one individual and what would she do if she was in U.K. would she go around trying to recruit others to terrorism?

I have read about others in the U.K. that have been given complete new identities costing the U.K. millions of pounds.
These are perpertrators of murder and yet money was spent on them to give them a chance of life which was more than their sad victim got. The reason given was because they were children when they committed the crime.
Just one case comes to mind at the moment and that is James Bulger what an appalling death he had. Those two boys were 10 and a half years old at the time and in my opinion would have known the difference between right and wrong. One of them stayed out of trouble on his release but I understand the other one has been back to prison twice,
which makes me wonder did the methods work or not.
The question can people change also comes to mind.

Are those who are saying she should be allowed to return the same ones saying we should be closing our borders to stop infection being brought into the country?

The boys who murdered James Bulger came from extremely abusive, neglectful homes. They were on secure units, until they moved into adult prisons. One boy was more able to respond to and benefit from the Routines, challenges, support and therapy available than the other.
We should respond to children as children.,,

Oldwoman70

Are those who are saying she should be allowed to return the same ones saying we should be closing our borders to stop infection being brought into the country?

None of us has any way of knowing this .

Well The Supreme Court rules she can't return. That's British Justice working.

That's the legal system working - is that the same thing?

I wonder if SB will appeal? There may be Law in this

They were released on a life time licence at the age of 18 to avoid going to an adult prison Iam which IMO was a questionable decision.

I understand that one has responded too and benefited from the rehabilitation process both were given but the other, as 3nanny has posted has twice been imprisoned and both times on line child pornography was involved.

In an interview she said "a lot of people should have sympathy" because "there was no evidence" she had done anything wrong. Yet there are reports from witnesses who say she was an enforcer for ISIS "morality police", was allowed to carry a kalishnikov and sewed suicide bombers into bomb jackets. She has also said she had no sympathy for the young Yazidi girls who were kidnapped - a comment she made when she was an adult.

I believe she hasn't changed her views and is attempting to follow the ISIS instruction to return to home countries to continue the fight.

Yes, you’re right Smiles. JV was recalled to prison because he breached the terms of his licence. RT has cooperated with his life licence and from what we hear, has built a life away from offending.

I appreciate the two boys came from abusive neglectful homes, and IMO one of them more neglectful than the other, I have listened to the taped police recordings on T.V. and one boy stated that he told the other boy just let him go lets not hurt him anymore. I expect that the one that has been in prison twice was more intent on what he planned to do than the other one.
Yes they were children but IMO the one that has been back to prison twice should spend at least 25 years in there nothing in the Law of the land can compensate for his actions.

Urmstongran

I would be devastated and heartbroken trisher. Inconsolable with grief and shame.

But as her own father in Pakistan said only last year - she ran away to join, planned it secretly with her friends, stopped listening to Western music, sat in her room most of the time in chat rooms. She was a changed girl.

Her teachers were worried about radicalisation. She never delivered the letter to her parents. She read it herself so will have known how worried everyone was. But. She. Still. Went.

I don’t kid myself.
If ISIS hadn’t been defeated she would still be the gun toting wife of a warrior, bearing sons for ISIS.

She is in limbo land right now but she isn’t in fear of her life.

She can stay where she is as far as I’m concerned.

My thoughts exactly Urmstongran
At 15 years old, all those three girls should know right from wrong. Goodness, I stated work at 15. She wasn't a little child. It was a bit of excitement for them.
If ISIS had won, she would still be there.
No sympathy from me. Never has been.

Poor kid - she was 15 at the time - surely her parents were responsible for her until she was 18 and therefore the ones to face fines/jail for her conduct? I can remember how irresponsible I was at 15.

kestrel the age of criminal responsibility in the UK is 10.

At the risk of going off topic, what really concerns me it the possibility of either of them fathering children, married or not, and the mother's of those children never knowing who they really are Iam!!

I totally agree 3nanny when he was arrested for the second time IMO JV's licence should have been revoked and a life sentence imposed.

If her mother, as her father doesn't live here, were to be fined or jailed for what she's done, which IMO would be indefensible, that doesn't resolve the issue of what to do about SB does it Kestrel.

We have gone off topic. JV seems to have told women/acquaintances who he is. I agree he should remain in prison, in fact he has been quoted as saying he needs to be.

Kestrel - I don’t believe parents can be held legally responsible. I’m concerned they were let down because safeguarding procedures were not followed. I read SB was interviewed four times at school because authorities were aware of her online activities. When it was decided her parents needed to know, SB was given a letter to give them. She kept it and has time to plan her escape to join ISIS. Shocking dereliction of duty by education, children’s services, police.

Some good points Granny, Smile and Iam.

I understand that anyone who comes out of prison after serving a sentence for murder is only out 'on licence'. That is their Life Sentence. And, any new relationships that are made whilst on licence the other parties have to be told exactly who they are and their crime.

The two children who murdered James Bulger were just that - children. Think the UK was the only first world country that has such a very low age of criminal responsibility. Yes, one seems to have responded well in the system (and I also seem to remember that is the one who had the most abusive home life), the other one has his licence withdrawn and will stay in prison.

As for Shameen Begum, - I will repeat that I find it of great concern that a Home Secretary (any HS), has the power to withdraw the citizenship of any British Citizen - even when that means they break UN rules and cause that person to become Stateless.

I don't think that would apply to that little boys killers Franbern as one of the conditions of their release was that their true identities would remain hidden.

That said, IMO it's extremely unlikely that any one they formed a relationship with would ever know who they are and what they've done.

As for Shameen Begum, - I will repeat that I find it of great concern that a Home Secretary (any HS), has the power to withdraw the citizenship of any British Citizen - even when that means they break UN rules and cause that person to become Stateless.

This is my main concern Franbern. We can argue the point about whether Shameen Begum should be punished for joining ISIS, or is likely to be a threat if she returns, but creating a precedent where any HS can make a Britsh Citizen stateless is very scary. It seems to be another example of this Government deviating from a rules based international system.

Smileless2012

I don't think that would apply to that little boys killers Franbern as one of the conditions of their release was that their true identities would remain hidden.

That said, IMO it's extremely unlikely that any one they formed a relationship with would ever know who they are and what they've done.

Why would you assume that all the rules that apply to 'out on licence' prisoners are different for these lads?

If they are in any sort of relationship,then the other person has to be informed of their background, same applies to any employment they have.

Other child murderers have been rehabilitated and gone on to lead reasonably normal lives (eg: Mary Bell)

Franbern has the one that had his licence withdrawn been kept in prison? I wondered about him because he went in once and was released and subsequently had a simular offence and went back in again. If he went into prison once then that should have been the end of his freedom. Also there must be
a possibility he can apply for parole.

I know for serious criminals if they form a relationship then it is the rehabilitation team such as probation officers etc, that have to inform the other person what their background is. I also thought like Smileless 2012 their case was so disturbing and that their identity must be kept hidden from everyone. Not sure the answer to that.

The backlog for appeals is in the thousands anyway so such an appeal as this will surely remain at the bottom of the list.
SB can of course appeal but it'll take another few years yet.

I explained why in my post on Thursday @ 09.14 Franbern.

Not all prisoners who are out on licence have had their true identities kept hidden, with that condition to be upheld for the rest of their lives.

I've just googled this and anyone found guilty of sharing adult photos of them could face a 2 year prison sentence.