"Five Giants" on the road to reconstruction

The obvious vanity project is HS2 wether it really will regenerate the north is anyone’s guess.

I know Dinahmo. On the one hand a bit of imagination and a better world, on the other BoJo the clown and his latest enterprise. Sometimes I feel very sad about our country.

To give him his due he does seem to be behaving a little more like a grown-up. So why, I ask myself, do I find each revelation of what is going on behind the scenes even more threatening.

PippaZ An interesting article. Unfortunately it goes against current Tory thinking and the many who approve of austerity measures. All it requires is some imagination. Unfortunately BJ's ideas are somewhat foolish - a bridge over the Thames, a zip wire across the Thames, both history now but indicative of how his mind works and a tunnel or bridge across the North Sea. And i forget the airport in North Kent. All vanity projects.

Katie59

Sorry Maisie, BJ is no Xi Jinping President for life of PRC, who does exactly what he wants within China and uses commerce to exploit everyone else.

He's working towards it, Katie59.

Sorry Maisie, BJ is no Xi Jinping President for life of PRC, who does exactly what he wants within China and uses commerce to exploit everyone else.

Increasingly so week by week it seems Maizie.

Well, we have the dictatorship already, Katie59. So what are we waiting for?

were will out. were well out.

Katie59

PippaZ

Did you manage to read the article Katie59? It went in to quite a bit of detail.

I agree with much that is said, to get the kind of unity you actually need is either the dictatorship that China has become. Or a national catastrophe such as defeat in war that Germany and Japan suffered, Brexit and Covid 19 are not going to give that unity.

I suppose it depends how far it changes our lives and how long it goes on. The "over by Christmas" lot were will out. If we are still fighting this in several years time change will be imperative whereas if it's all over by the summer it will be a lesson we could do with learning but may choose not to.

varian

Thank you PippaZ to this article in the New Statesman
www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2021/03/britain-s-project by Roberto Mangabeira Unger.

He writes-

"Without reforming the distribution of power between Britain’s central government and its nations and regions, any progressive agenda to reshape the economy is likely to lack the guidance that only decentralised trial and error can provide, and to be overwhelmed by the forces that are pulling the UK apart. The heart of the needed constitutional revisions must be a new way of imagining the relationship between Westminster and the parts and peoples of the country.

Contrary to prevailing belief, strong central initiative is not incompatible with the empowerment of local or regional government. The UK can have more of both. The way to have more of both is to distinguish areas of law and policy in which the centre and the regions will have distinct responsibilities from those in which they will exercise concurrent powers. Productive uplift and educational reform are prime candidates for the latter."

It seems to me that .constitutional reform is absolutely essential for us to move in a progressive direction but
it does not suit the agenda of the hugely influential media barons and Tory Party funders.

That appealed to me too Varian.

PippaZ

Did you manage to read the article Katie59? It went in to quite a bit of detail.

I agree with much that is said, to get the kind of unity you actually need is either the dictatorship that China has become. Or a national catastrophe such as defeat in war that Germany and Japan suffered, Brexit and Covid 19 are not going to give that unity.

Thank you PippaZ to this article in the New Statesman
www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2021/03/britain-s-project by Roberto Mangabeira Unger.

He writes-

"Without reforming the distribution of power between Britain’s central government and its nations and regions, any progressive agenda to reshape the economy is likely to lack the guidance that only decentralised trial and error can provide, and to be overwhelmed by the forces that are pulling the UK apart. The heart of the needed constitutional revisions must be a new way of imagining the relationship between Westminster and the parts and peoples of the country.

Contrary to prevailing belief, strong central initiative is not incompatible with the empowerment of local or regional government. The UK can have more of both. The way to have more of both is to distinguish areas of law and policy in which the centre and the regions will have distinct responsibilities from those in which they will exercise concurrent powers. Productive uplift and educational reform are prime candidates for the latter."

It seems to me that .constitutional reform is absolutely essential for us to move in a progressive direction but
it does not suit the agenda of the hugely influential media barons and Tory Party funders.

Did you manage to read the article Katie59? It went in to quite a bit of detail.

Those are the obvious faults and a long term “national project” could well restore the economy, but with 30 yrs of short term decision making and few resources we are prepared to exploit, it’s not going to happen.

With China improving quality and efficiency all the time it’s them we have to compete with, wether it’s heavy machinery or high tech it’s just no contest, even emerging technology like renewables China is the place it’s all made. They can do everything much cheaper because they have cheap labour, low environmental standards and ignore any intellectual property laws.

I will be really interested to hear how we could increase production in the UK

Just reviving this and taking it back - I hope - to the OP.

There is an interesting article in the New Statesman which I am hoping in not BFW. In it the author, Roberto Mangabeira Unger puts forward the argument that the only good reason for Brexit would be to do something outside the European Union that would be harder to do inside it. He suggests that Brexit has thrown up the need for both main parties to rid themselves of ideas that have become irrelevant to the solution of the country’s problems., and that Covid will leave us with a desire to make larger the lives that have been made longer. His conclusion to this thinking is that we will need a "National Project".

The need for such an agenda nevertheless follows from the two major problems that the UK faces. These problems decisively trump the two national issues that the moneyed and governing classes take seriously: how to pay for the emergency – in public health, governmental finance, and economic output – and how to reposition Britain in the world economy.

He takes us through the issues as he sees them:

The first problem is the decline of Britain’s productive base.
The second problem is the lack of constitutional arrangements that allow the UK to reshape its economy and to deal with its differences.

As is the way of the New Stateman, it is a long and detailed article. I do hope those who are interested in making the most of our future instead of trying to return to the past can read it. I would be interested in hearing what you make of it.

Changing capital taxation might make some people feel better but it doesn’t increase tax paid. If you make any investment less attractive the value falls, the private rental market is not particularly attractive. There is a quite likely going to be more legislation, giving tenants more security, that’s not going to encourage more investment, more security is needed particularly for families, that’s not going to increase the availability, then more housing is needed.

The only way to get substantially more is to tax the whole population, either Income Tax or VAT, Corporation tax for companies, everything else is tinkering around the edges

growstuff no one growstuff; no one

I agree growstuff no one should be able to make more from property or securities than can be made from paid work. We could look again at inheritance tax but I think we need to use the ongoing taxes and reliefs to be corrected first.

growstuff

I wasn't even specifically referring to tax.

I was referring to so-called "rentiers" as a whole - people who don't work, but invest wealth to acquire further wealth. I include landlords in that category.

We have an economy, in which it is easier to make money from appreciation of property values and rent than it is from doing paid work - whether on an employed or self-employed basis.

That I will agree with it’s much easier to make money renting out property to others, commercial property especially, because tenants tend to stay a long time, and are usually problem free.
Residential property is tricky, there are lots of regulations and taxes that have to be accounted for, not to mention management agents, tenants can be a pain and move around a lot.

Dinahmo

Katie59 So he runs a work van. I daresay there may be a bit of private use there but he will be claiming 100% of running costs. Which he can do because his wife has a car. How do you know that he's not claiming some of the running costs of his wife's car? Paying some of her petrol and service bills?

I know his accountant, he won’t get anything past her, she’s the one who has to argue with tax inspectors, likely allowing 10% private use.

I wasn't even specifically referring to tax.

I was referring to so-called "rentiers" as a whole - people who don't work, but invest wealth to acquire further wealth. I include landlords in that category.

We have an economy, in which it is easier to make money from appreciation of property values and rent than it is from doing paid work - whether on an employed or self-employed basis.

Katie59 So he runs a work van. I daresay there may be a bit of private use there but he will be claiming 100% of running costs. Which he can do because his wife has a car. How do you know that he's not claiming some of the running costs of his wife's car? Paying some of her petrol and service bills?

So some would have Overhaul of the Tax Code as one of their challenges but not Katie59 from what I read.

It is likely to happen in any case if we really go all out in the way they did post war - it will depend on governments on which direction that goes of course.

Anyone can choose to be self employed and find work yourself week by week it’s not all clover, there are no paid holidays, no sick pay, no employment rights, no pension rights.
There are plenty that don’t make a go of it and take a full time job, or more likely take a part time job to make ends meet. If you are very smart you will do well self employed , if you’re average, forget it, get a proper job even if it’s stacking shelves.

A friend of mine is typical, he builds and fits kitchens, he probably has £100k in machinery and rents his workshop, he is good at it but is pressured on price always and works 60 hours a week. His wife is a senior nurse and earns double his income for 36 hours, she runs a Mercedes SUV, he has his work van .

Katie59 Sorry, but you are missing a very important group - one that has no access to allowances. Those in employment.

If you're self employed or a company director you can claim for travel or car running expenses. Employed people have to pay their travel to work and if you are going any distance season tickets are extremely expensive - no tax relief for those.

For the self employed, provided their base is their home address, they can claim for the cost of getting to a job. Commuters are likely to buy a daily paper to enliven their journey. They might even buy a drink or snack if their journey is long. They can't claim tax relief on those items. I can - I buy a paper so that I can read the business and political pages - I can claim. I could give other examples but that would just be too boring.