Is the Government threatening our democracy - Part 2

Perhaps, GrannyRose, you could explain how the opposition should be doing its job in the face of a PM and government who are completely contemptuous of, and totally disregard, all the usual means of accountability/

How is the opposition supposed to 'do its job'?

GrannyRose15

^Anyone who voted tory in Dec. 2019 has contributed to enabling this.^

As has anyone who voted Labour. The opposition is simply not doing its job.

How on earth do you work that out?

Should they have all voted for Lord Buckethead?

Anyone who voted tory in Dec. 2019 has contributed to enabling this.

As has anyone who voted Labour. The opposition is simply not doing its job.

Nanof3

ID must be shown when opening a Bank or Building Society account, when attending the Job Centre to apply for Universal Credit, when attending an interview for a job, when applying for or renewing a passport, when collecting a parcel from the sorting office and often when items are delivered by courier to name but a few so why would anyone protest at showing ID when voting? Surely it is imperative to ensure elections are run correctly.
At the moment you can go to the polling station and vote even if you have forgotten the polling card - I have done so - and they took my word that I was who I said I was.

The point is there is absolutely no evidence of voter fraud at polling stations. Even if someone wanted to impersonate another person when voting in person it wouldn't have any real effect on the overall vote.

The real problem with voter fraud comes with postal voting where fraud can happen on an industrial scale.

ID at polling stations is solving a problem that doesn't exist but not tackling the real threat. Typical example of a government that feels it has to be seen to be doing something even if it is pointless.

‘But the curtailment of civil liberties is not so much a threat to our democracy as is the manner in which it was achieved. The true threat to our democracy is the contempt which our government has for the doctrine of accountability to the governed and the huge majority of nodding dogs masquerading as tory MPs who have voted to deprive themselves of the power of parliament to scrutinise and amend legislation and have handed unchecked power to the Executive.’

To this we can add the contempt Johnson demonstrates to us every time he lies - which is practically a daily occurrence- and with yesterday’s obligatory lie went a breaking of the electoral purdah rules.

GrannyRose15

If it wasn't so serious I would find it laughable that Gransnetters are now worried about the threat to our democracy. You are all about a year too late.

Every time the Covid restrictions have been accepted without question. Every time someone on this site has advocated harsher lockdown or greater penalties for those who don't comply. Every time someone trying to highlight the threats to our civil liberties has been pilloried. All this has put another nail in the coffin of our democracy. So don't be surprised now that the government thinks it can get away with even more damaging policies.

Well, I for one, GrannyRose, have been worried about threats to our democracy for a few years now and if this site had a half decent search facility I could find posts to prove it.

But the curtailment of civil liberties is not so much a threat to our democracy as is the manner in which it was achieved. The true threat to our democracy is the contempt which our government has for the doctrine of accountability to the governed and the huge majority of nodding dogs masquerading as tory MPs who have voted to deprive themselves of the power of parliament to scrutinise and amend legislation and have handed unchecked power to the Executive.

I have pointed out the loss of democracy this has enabled in post after post after post...

Anyone who voted tory in Dec. 2019 has contributed to enabling this.

But the threat has certainly been escalating over the last year. All helped by the complicity of a fearful population.

Some of us have been worried about it for well over a year, in fact from the start of the Brexit campaign. You could go back to the Iraq War when thousands of people marched against it.

If it wasn't so serious I would find it laughable that Gransnetters are now worried about the threat to our democracy. You are all about a year too late.

Every time the Covid restrictions have been accepted without question. Every time someone on this site has advocated harsher lockdown or greater penalties for those who don't comply. Every time someone trying to highlight the threats to our civil liberties has been pilloried. All this has put another nail in the coffin of our democracy. So don't be surprised now that the government thinks it can get away with even more damaging policies.

Katie59

I have relatives in Australia, voting is mandatory, there is a stiff fine if you don’t vote, they have to show an ID, it doesn’t cause a problem, it’s the way it’s done. Australian politics seems pretty chaotic to me, certainly no improvement over the UK, having said that they did get the Covid response tight.

I don’t think this is quite accurate. I think it’s only in Queensland that you have to show ID and there’s a long list of what is acceptable . My understanding is that here it’s being proposed to have a limited range of photo ID. Here’s the Queensland list

What passes for the right ID? Almost anything goes. The official list of acceptable voter ID to show at a polling booth includes:

A current driver licence
A current Australian passport
A voter information letter issued by the Electoral Commission
A recent document detailing electoral enrolment
A government entitlement card
A Medicare card, pensioner concession card, or repatriation health card
An adult proof-of-age card
A recent account or notice issued by a local government or public utility provider
Account card
Credit card
A recent telephone bill
Tax assessment notice

I have relatives in Australia, voting is mandatory, there is a stiff fine if you don’t vote, they have to show an ID, it doesn’t cause a problem, it’s the way it’s done. Australian politics seems pretty chaotic to me, certainly no improvement over the UK, having said that they did get the Covid response tight.

Dinahmo

As mentioned further up, voter ID fraud is almost non-existent. Creating concern about this in the general population is just another way in which the govt. is trying to control everybody. After all, it's those pesky immigrants who commit voter fraud and we have to knock that on the head, right away.

It’ll be like stop and search at the polling station/ white people waived through and ethnic minorities having to show id. If the govt really cared about democracy it would put some real effort into improving voter registration rates but it won’t because the current system favours them.

As mentioned further up, voter ID fraud is almost non-existent. Creating concern about this in the general population is just another way in which the govt. is trying to control everybody. After all, it's those pesky immigrants who commit voter fraud and we have to knock that on the head, right away.

It would have to be a photo ID I wonder how many don’t actually have some form of photo ID.
If identity is going to be checked at the polling station there can only be a limited number of suitable IDs, Passport, Driving Licence, college ID for students, plus another

suziewoozie

So how is the invented problem of voter fraud/ identification going to be solved?

If national ID cards were brought in, that at least would be treating everyone the same but the govt of course would have a huge battle. Picking off the poorer and more disadvantaged members of society is much easier and will impact voting numbers in their favour. What’s not to like in no 10?

By making everybody have ID cards!

So how is the invented problem of voter fraud/ identification going to be solved?

“ What we send in foreign aid has tripled over the years and we're not that far behind the USA which is the biggest provider.”

UK has increased its foreign aid from around .5% to .7% of GDP in the last 10 yrs, humanitarian and health aid are the large amounts followed by development, India and China currently receive very little if any aid from the UK. Pakistan, Nigeria and Somalia, along with other African and Asian countries receive the bulk of our aid.

Interestingly China is not listed as as an “aid” provider, however they do invest in infrastructure in a great many countries.

Oh look - from the Money Advice Service on opening a bank account without photo ID.

Option 2 - Government issued document with full name but no photo (eg old driving licence) AND an official document, statement or bill with name and either address or date of birth (eg Council Tax bill, credit card statement, utility bill)
The easiest option if you don’t have photo ID. But getting hold of these can be a problem for people who aren’t named on tenancy agreements or bills, or don’t have a permanent address.

GrannyGravy13

suziewoozie how do the Groups you are describing pick up their parcels from the Post Office, open bank accounts or give proof of their identity which is needed more and more as time goes by?

Well for starters, here’s the list from the PO website - many of which do not include a photo.

We’ll accept any of these:
• Birth certificate
• Building society book
• Cheque book
• Cheque guarantee card
• Council tax payment book
• Credit card
• Credit card statement (no older than 6 months)
• Debit card
• Full driving licence
• Marriage certificate
• Military photo ID
• Police Warrant Card
• Foreign national identity card
• National Savings bank book
• Valid passport
• Paid utilities bill (no older than 6 months)
• Standard acknowledgement letter (SAL) issued by the Home Office for asylum seekers
• Trade union card

Society itself is threatening democracy.Why blame the Gov ?ernment

How can not being " Woke " be democratic ?

suziewoozie how do the Groups you are describing pick up their parcels from the Post Office, open bank accounts or give proof of their identity which is needed more and more as time goes by?

Democracy is one-sided I don't know about anything else.

When this country is sending money to the Chinese to help stop them from eating too much salt, then yes, a reduction in aid is needed.

I note also that both India and China can send rockets to the moon because of an increase in aid from Britain.
What we send in foreign aid has tripled over the years and we're not that far behind the USA which is the biggest provider.

Since the pandemic struck here, we'll need all the finance we can get to build up people's businesses and jobs and generally get the country back on track never mind about losing sleep over lack of foreign aid !