BAME - Let's stop using it

The issue surely is about the words we use to describe individuals when their differences are relevant. The issue about disability is similar. There are a huge range of different disabilities which need considering in many different situations. There has to be a way of doing this by using language which is acceptable to the individuals concerned.

So, serious question, PamelaJ1, not being goady...why do you need a word to describe your neighbour other than "your neighbour"?

If s/he wants to tell you about their family's history, I'm sure they will. It really isn't anybody's business. Sorry, repeating myself there.

The post upthread about how a footballer was described. Why did it matter where his ancestors came from? Just call him by his name, if you need to call him anything.

Regarding BAME, I mostly agree with suzie and growstuff.

I agree with you suzie. We do seem to have X posted.

We need acceptable words to use to describe relevant differences - it’s just silly to pretend we don’t. The key word is relevant - does the difference need commenting on. Eg ‘my neighbour from no 24 has been taken to hospital ‘or ‘my black neighbour from no 24 has been taken to hospital.’Or ‘ my black neighbour from no 24 has been verbally abused in the street (again)

Chardy

Romesh Ranganathan (of Sri Lankan heritage) was using 'BAME' this morning on TV when talking about celebs encouraging groups with low vaccination take-up.
Groups that are discriminated against (WASPIs and BAME have been mentioned already) would probably be delighted for the tags and the discrimination to stop simultaneously.

We know that there is vaccine hesitancy amongst certain groups, but the BAME label doesn't really help. For example, a black actor would be unlikely to appeal to somebody from a Pakistani-heritage background. They're different ethnic groups and their hesitancy is likely caused by different factors.

Just because somebody has brown skin or "foreign looking" facial features doesn't mean that identify as belonging to any group other than British anyway. They could very well have been born in the UK, even though their parents or grandparents were immigrants. Compare how second generation immigrants from Eastern Europe or Ireland, who of course have white skin, are treated. They very quickly integrate and the only real difference is their skin colour.

X posts. But there are situations eg in a policy meeting where it would be perfectly proper to ask ‘have we considered the issues around ethnic minorities’ and then go on to discuss the different groups individually in terms of eg service needs.

Grandmajet - I agree with you. We're all fascinating individuals.
By getting to know each other better help narrow the division.
People's stories are so important in understanding our world.

Human beings is what I meant grandmajet.

Hetty58

I don't have to stop using it - as I never started. I dislike these (supposedly) all-encompassing descriptive abbreviations for groups of people. After all, we are individuals.

Well yes and no. It’s important to know the ethnic composition of particular areas when planning eg health services because rates of certain conditions vary between ethnicities.

I'm not the slightest bit surprised that people currently labelled as BAME object. The term lumps together people from all sorts of different backgrounds and with different needs.

Even public perception differentiates between between, for example, people from a Chinese or Bangladeshi origin, but lumps them all together as "Asian".

It is useful for public planning to know that some areas have a high percentage of people from a certain ethnic background, because it is possible they might have different needs. For example, some people from certain backgrounds are prone to certain medical conditions, so it might be helpful to allocate funding for specialists. Schools might need extra funding to pay for EAL, etc.

However, the BAME label doesn't really help with the above because it doesn't differentiate between people. All it does is label people as "others" and people tend to shrug their shoulders and say "What do you expect? They're BAME". There's been quite a lot of that over the last few months with the pandemic.

Alegrias1

Other? Other?
It would only have been racist PamelaJ1 if you'd gone on to say "Yes, but where are you really from?"
It's not that hard, honestly.

I used the word other to illustrate that I am at a loss as to the word to use to describe anyone other than white. I thought the new acronym BAME was the but it seems not.

So tell me what is it. I can’t think that I would use it much but it would be useful to know just in case.

Romesh Ranganathan (of Sri Lankan heritage) was using 'BAME' this morning on TV when talking about celebs encouraging groups with low vaccination take-up.
Groups that are discriminated against (WASPIs and BAME have been mentioned already) would probably be delighted for the tags and the discrimination to stop simultaneously.

Trouble is Elegran, that as suzie says, the implication has often been there that if you look different you can't really be British. So I can understand why people get prickly about being asked about their ethnic origins.

I just don't agree with being interested in what brought people to these shores, unless they want to tell me. It really is none of my business.

I certainly know of people from various minority ethnic groups who hate being all lumped together in this way.

I have also heard of black (Caribbean roots) people who feel quite distinct from black (African roots) people and really dislike being viewed as a homogenous group.

Alegrias I just might have recognised the Doric, as my next-door neighbour has some choice Aberdeen expressions.

I think I said to my Western Isles acquaintance. "That sounds like Irish, are you from there?" but it was a while ago. Nowadays I wouldn't risk asking someone where they are from. I might phrase it so that it didn't imply a chance of the next sentence being "Why don't you go back there?" but I would never have been leading up to that in the first place.

However it is interesting to know where someone's roots are, and what brought them or their ancestors to these shores - without having nasty reasons for enquiring.

I don't have to stop using it - as I never started. I dislike these (supposedly) all-encompassing descriptive abbreviations for groups of people. After all, we are individuals.

Language changes as society begins to understand more. It’s unlikely you’d see patients described on psychiatric wards as lunatics. Or, people with learning difficulties as cretins or morons. These were acceptable terms, until they weren’t. The current terms will no doubt change along with attitudes, or a wish to generalise less, be specific more.

Finding the right language to describe non white people is currently centre stage. Little wonder given BLM and that interview for example. I was challenged about 20 years ago, after referring to a 15 year old as mixed race. No, she’s of dual heritage. She had white British, Irish, West Indian and North African heritage that we were certain of.

Oh well I have learned something already today as I have just been listening to a chap speak Doric what a lovely accent

I'm afraid I like to know where people are from. I suppose I mean Manchester or Slough or whatever. I don't know why this is interesting but generally it leads to interesting conversations. It wouldn't be a first question - and often I'm asked it too.

I think this has nothing to do with using the lump-all-together BAME.

I get asked about my accent too but it has nothing to do with my melanin

It's Doric Elegran. Not prickly, quite proud actually. Even when people think I'm speaking Dutch or try to make out I'm a bit thick.

Nobody ever asks people with "Queen's English" where their accent is from, do they? Never heard that anyway.

Did you ask this person what their ethnic background was? Or just where their accent was from?

Anyway, BAME....

Alegrias1

Chewbacca

Would you have asked her if she "looked" white?

I might have done if she'd had an accent that I couldn't quite place and circumstances and situation allowed.

I have an accent you probably couldn't place. If that led you to asking me where I was from the very least you'd get is a telling off.

But I have had a very interesting conversation with someone whose accent I thought was Irish, but who turned out to have lived most of his life in the Western Isles. We discussed the similarities and differences, and how accents changed gradually across the country from East to West and North to South, and how successive waves of immigration to and from Ireland had affected intonation and ways of speech. If I hadn't asked where his accent came from, we would both have missed out.

Your unplaceable one sounds interesting, Alegrias. A pity you are so prickly about it.

Two of my friends don't like it either, the one prefers to be black, the other South East Asian and I don't know why it is so difficult to categorise them as such if that's what they want. Specific issues affect specific groups too and that's what should be concentrated on. Lumping people together doesn't work.

I think if I meet someone new I’ll just smile and say ‘lovely weather we’re having’. It’s safer.

On my various outings during lockdowns of various kinds I’ve struck up numerous conversations with random strangers . Never have I asked them

Where they come from
How much their income is
How often they have sex

We seem to have found plenty of things to talk about regardless