David Lammy on LBC

Smileless2012

I agree with you Chestnut and it's been visible elsewhere on GN recently and is rather unpleasant.

Well, why accuse anybody on this thread of something which is happening elsewhere? I don't even know what's happening elsewhere because I don't follow many threads.

I haven't accused anyone on this thread of something that's happened elsewhere growstuff I'm agreeing with Chestnut's comment and saying it's been visible elsewhere.

For goodness sake, if you're going to quote a post of mine you could at least read it first.

BTW , people do realize that the word 'England' comes from Angleland i.e. the land of the Anglo-Saxons? So it's quite possible to think that if say I am descended from Anglo-Saxons then I am English but others who don't aren't English but can have British nationality?

I don't agree with that Loislovesstewie.

What about someone who is descended from the Anglo Saxons but moved to Australia in the 19th Century? Are they still English because of their ancestors? No, of course not. So somebody who moves to England, or whose ancestors moved to England can be English.

DH's ancestors moved to Kent from Germany around Tudor times. Does he get to be English? His parents certainly thought they were English.

BTW, if I start referring to the English as Sassenachs, will you all be offended? Its the Gaelic word for English, derived from the word for "Saxon"

If you are proud of your cultural heritage - fine.

But don’t make the mistake of assuming cultural heritage can be identified by a persons physical appearance.

Smileless2012

I haven't accused anyone on this thread of something that's happened elsewhere growstuff I'm agreeing with Chestnut's comment and saying it's been visible elsewhere.

For goodness sake, if you're going to quote a post of mine you could at least read it first.

I did.

I don't call myself English because I am a mix of lots of things, including Dutch, Portuguese, Scottish, Irish and Hungarian. I speak English, I was born in England, but my nationality is British. My ethnicity is a bit muddled up, but my nationality is British. A person born in Australia who qualifies for that nationality is Australian, but they might feel their ethnicity to be completely different. They might answer Italian or Greek of Indian or anything else in respect of ethnicity and that is really the point I am making ;nationality and ethnicity can be different and that might be where this person is coming from.
I am not making an apology on behalf of this person for bad manners BTW just offering an explanation of how they might think.

No you didn't because if you had, you would see that your post @ 15.03 makes no sense in relation to the one of mine you quoted.

GagaJo

OK Chestnut, you crack on being proud of being German and Danish. Have you been to German or Denmark?

I am not German or Danish and I didn't I say I was proud of anything. Ancestry shows English DNA for me. My daughter on the other hand shows a small percentage of German (from her father). So English and German DNA are not the same, and can be identified as different. So calling an English person German or Danish is a strange thing to do.
Ancestry DNA analysis is based on millions of DNA samples and it is being tweaked all the time as the incoming data enables them to be more and more accurate.

Loislovesstewie

I don't call myself English because I am a mix of lots of things, including Dutch, Portuguese, Scottish, Irish and Hungarian. I speak English, I was born in England, but my nationality is British. My ethnicity is a bit muddled up, but my nationality is British. A person born in Australia who qualifies for that nationality is Australian, but they might feel their ethnicity to be completely different. They might answer Italian or Greek of Indian or anything else in respect of ethnicity and that is really the point I am making ;nationality and ethnicity can be different and that might be where this person is coming from.
I am not making an apology on behalf of this person for bad manners BTW just offering an explanation of how they might think.

So are you saying that a persons cultural identity can be entirely different to her nationality?

I'd be offended to be called a Sassenach because as you can see I'm probably not!

Whitewavemark2

Loislovesstewie

I don't call myself English because I am a mix of lots of things, including Dutch, Portuguese, Scottish, Irish and Hungarian. I speak English, I was born in England, but my nationality is British. My ethnicity is a bit muddled up, but my nationality is British. A person born in Australia who qualifies for that nationality is Australian, but they might feel their ethnicity to be completely different. They might answer Italian or Greek of Indian or anything else in respect of ethnicity and that is really the point I am making ;nationality and ethnicity can be different and that might be where this person is coming from.
I am not making an apology on behalf of this person for bad manners BTW just offering an explanation of how they might think.

So are you saying that a persons cultural identity can be entirely different to her nationality?

I thought I had made that plain?

lls So how does one acquire a cultural identity?

Loislovesstewie that is exactly the point I have been trying to make but some people can't see it. ?

I'm not sure the growth in Ancestry DNA is necessarily a good thing.

"English" DNA means you share lots of DNA elements with other people who live, or lived, in England. Not that there is a defining characteristic in your DNA that makes you "English"

If Scotland and Wales go independent in the future, what does that mean for a "British" nationality? Cause if that happens I'll definitely not be British.

So are you saying that a persons cultural identity can be entirely different to her nationality?
Yes! At last the penny drops.

What will the inhabitants of England call themselves?

Chestnut

^So are you saying that a persons cultural identity can be entirely different to her nationality?^
Yes! At last the penny drops.

Although I suppose it depends on what you mean by cultural identity ?

Angles and Saxons invaded the British Isles from the end of Roman occupation until the Vikings usurped their control.

That was over a 1000 years ago. A person living today is about 30 generations removed from the Angles and Saxons, so has just over a million ancestors going back to Anglo-Saxon rule. It is almost impossible for anybody to have a million ancestors who are all descended from the same tribes, so somewhere along the line the ancestry has been "polluted" - probably many times.

"Jean" from the radio phone-in was deluded.

Alegrias1

I'm not sure the growth in Ancestry DNA is necessarily a good thing.

"English" DNA means you share lots of DNA elements with other people who live, or lived, in England. Not that there is a defining characteristic in your DNA that makes you "English"

If Scotland and Wales go independent in the future, what does that mean for a "British" nationality? Cause if that happens I'll definitely not be British.

Ancestry DNA for females can't tell people that much anyway.

Mitochondrial DNA only uses the female line.

I thought that the debate was about a person on LBC arguing that Lammy could never call himself English as in her view he is Afo- Caribbean.

I then assumed that we understand ethnicity as a social construct based around cultural identity.

I was interested in the idea of nationality and cultural identity and was hoping for a bit of a discussion around the two concepts, but somehow laughter and sarcasm seems the order of the day.

Shame really.

I don't think anyone 'acquires' a cultural identity ,it's not like picking something up in Tesco's!
I mean you must have met people who, although they were born in the UK have different customs, speak another language at home, eat food which is from their home country ? To all intents and purposes they are living a life very much like their ancestors would but they are in the UK.
Is their cultural identity English? They can still be British by nationality ,there is no racism implied or meant , but we live in a multi ethnic society and consequently there are different cultures too.

FWIW my husband is British but ethnically a Romany.

So you are saying that a cultural identity is something you are born with?

BTW passports don't say 'English' on them, do they?