David Lammy on LBC

Loislovesstewie

Because, believe it or not, social workers who deal with adoptions feel that an adoptive child should have parents who are ethnically and culturally as close to the child's ethnicity/culture as possible.

Pander to me and give my question some serious thought, just as an interesting exercise.

GagaJo

I only found out fairly recently that the indigenous inhabitants of the Caribbean were similar to native Americans. All wiped out by slavers and the sugar cane industry.

And it's likely that Native Americans originally came from Asia.

Whitewavemark2

What I am arguing is that you can’t possibly be born with a cultural identity.

Say for example a young woman whose entire ancestry as far as she knows originated in the UK gives birth and the child is immediately adopted and raised by a person whose entire ancestry originated in Zimbabwe. What would that child’s cultural identity be?

Presumably you mean a white child adopted by a black family. You didn't say where the family lived, but the child's 'cultural identity' would depend on where they lived. The way they will be brought up in the UK is different from the way they will be brought up in Zimbabwe (language, schooling, food, customs, etc.) Their country would also be their nationality (for passport purposes etc.)
Either way, it wouldn't change the child's DNA or ethnicity which is white (you didn't specifically say which country).

But would that child identify as British or Zimbabwean?

We had a similar scenario when Madonna adopted some black children and took them to the USA. I feel this was done for her own gratification and not with the children's best interests at heart. If she wanted to help them why not support them within their own family and also provide their schooling. She probably has enough money to provide for the whole community!

Whitewavemark2

But would that child identify as British or Zimbabwean?

I just said, it depends on which country they lived in. They will of course identify with the country they live in both culturally and as a citizen, but may still consider themselves white racially.

So Lammy, identifying as British is doing exactly as you would expect and assume.

Whether or not they consider themselves white is immaterial, - they are- but their behaviour and cultural identity is Zimbabwean. They are Zimbabwean.

Whitewavemark2

But would that child identify as British or Zimbabwean?

White Zimbabweans and Afrikaaners self-identify as Africans, just as white Barbadeans self-identify as West Indian. Their families have lived there for generations, even though they don't have African DNA.

Why is the situation with David Lammy any different?

Cross post WW.

growstuff

Cross post WW.

?

There is no such thing as white ethnicity. Ethnicity is a social construct.

Many years ago I taught a brother and sister, one of whom was white and the other had brown skin. They had inherited different genes from their parents, but they weren't "ethnically" different.

DNA is scientific. Ethnicity isn't.

Whitewavemark2

So Lammy, identifying as British is doing exactly as you would expect and assume.

Whether or not they consider themselves white is immaterial, - they are- but their behaviour and cultural identity is Zimbabwean. They are Zimbabwean.

Absolutely, don't know why that even needs to be said. We have come complete circle and arrived back at the beginning of the discussion, that ethnic ancestry is not the same as nationality and that people from different races can be born in the UK and consider themselves British.
David Lammy , like me, should really be British not English. I was born in England but as my DNA is not even 50% English I call myself British.
And as it has been pointed out most emphatically on this thread, English is originally German and Danish, and David Lammy is not English, German or Danish DNA, so cannot claim to be English. Like me, he is British.

David Lammy , like me, should really be British not English. I was born in England but as my DNA is not even 50% English I call myself British.

I'm sure that David Lammy will be interested to know that you, Chestnut, like Jean, have absolutely and authoritatively declared that he cannot be English.

Chestnut

Whitewavemark2

So Lammy, identifying as British is doing exactly as you would expect and assume.

Whether or not they consider themselves white is immaterial, - they are- but their behaviour and cultural identity is Zimbabwean. They are Zimbabwean.

Absolutely, don't know why that even needs to be said. We have come complete circle and arrived back at the beginning of the discussion, that ethnic ancestry is not the same as nationality and that people from different races can be born in the UK and consider themselves British.
David Lammy , like me, should really be British not English. I was born in England but as my DNA is not even 50% English I call myself British.
And as it has been pointed out most emphatically on this thread, English is originally German and Danish, and David Lammy is not English, German or Danish DNA, so cannot claim to be English. Like me, he is British.

?

I certainly haven’t joined that circle.

Chestnut

Whitewavemark2

So Lammy, identifying as British is doing exactly as you would expect and assume.

Whether or not they consider themselves white is immaterial, - they are- but their behaviour and cultural identity is Zimbabwean. They are Zimbabwean.

Absolutely, don't know why that even needs to be said. We have come complete circle and arrived back at the beginning of the discussion, that ethnic ancestry is not the same as nationality and that people from different races can be born in the UK and consider themselves British.
David Lammy , like me, should really be British not English. I was born in England but as my DNA is not even 50% English I call myself British.
And as it has been pointed out most emphatically on this thread, English is originally German and Danish, and David Lammy is not English, German or Danish DNA, so cannot claim to be English. Like me, he is British.

What the heck? He was born in England and, as far as I know, has live in England all his life, apart from a spell at Harvard.

Why on earth shouldn't he consider himself to be English?

Neither have I WW.

Why on earth shouldn't he consider himself to be English?

Because Chestnut and Jean say he can't, seems to be the answer...

growstuff

David Lammy is the chorister in Peterborough Cathedral on the far left. That looks quintessentially English to me.

Why ever do you think a cathedral choir is quintessentially English? There are cathedral choirs wherever there are cathedrals!

True! But it just looks like an English cathedral.

I will cheekily say it was built in the Norman style!

Why on earth shouldn't he consider himself to be English?
I have just explained why I think DM and myself are both British in nationality, even though I was born in England and have always lived in England. Our nationality is British, as on our passports. I thought that had been discussed in detail but still doesn't seem to be understood.

David Lammy feels English culturally. He was born and grew up in England. Our colonial past means he was born in the mother country. He represents an English constituency. Only a bigot like “jean” could deny him the right to claim English on any official form

I’m white. My dna says largely Northern European. Danish, Scottish, Irish, French. I feel English - we can track dads family back to the mid 17th century. The family name has Norman roots. I still feel English but as I’m white, no doubt jean would accept that

Chestnut

^Why on earth shouldn't he consider himself to be English?^
I have just explained why I think DM and myself are both British in nationality, even though I was born in England and have always lived in England. Our nationality is British, as on our passports. I thought that had been discussed in detail but still doesn't seem to be understood.

Whatever you have 'explained' doesn't give you any authority to tell other people how they should describe themselves.

Whatever you have 'explained' doesn't give you any authority to tell other people how they should describe themselves.
Presumably DL's passport says his nationality is British
He lives in England so his cultural heritage is English
His ethnic DNA is Afro Caribbean and Scottish
Take your pick!
He can describe himself by any of those things and I am not telling him anything.
People take snippets from comments and then make a sweeping statement or nasty criticism based on one thing. No wonder so many grans are scared to post.