How do we stop boys who become drunk being labelled as sex predators?

And what? The situation the next day is the same as it was the night before. If someone is so inebriated that there is a question of consent then the man is responsible for his own decision not to have sex. This is equally true if a woman decides to mount an inebriated man. I don’t understand what you’re trying to get at here?

People are responsible for their own choices, drinking, having sex, whatever.

I’m not talking about blotto. I’m talking about two people equally drunk and equally involved - until the next day.

The man is responsible for his own decision; take advantage of the fact that someone is blotto, or steer well clear - to protect himself every bit as much as the girl.

I was drunk. You were drunk. We had sex irresponsibly. But you’re the abuser because you’re a man. You should have been responsible for my decision.

But often the question of consent comes after the event. What was consensual at the time is afterwards being presented by women as “I couldn’t have given consent because I was drunk and not responsible.”

But consensual sex is something that happens to both people in the act. A boy can equally say, I couldn’t have consented to what happened to me because I was drunk and not responsible.”

It’s a very retrograde view that sex is always what men do to women. If both have participated, both are responsible.

Seeing sexual assault and let’s be perfectly clear that’s what “wandering hands” is, it is an illegal act of sexual assault. Having anyone touch your body in a sexual way without consent is unequivocally sexual assault. Having clarified that - to say that sexual assault is not a violation?!? Really? Ok so at what point is ok for a woman to feel violated? When her breasts are groped? No not enough, how about when her Vaginal area is groped? Is that enough to constitute violation? Or does there have to be actual penetration? How much trauma does it take to feel violated?

Boys or any sexual aggressor of any gender should not under any circumstances wander their hands anywhere - if there is a question of consent DON’T DO IT. That’s the message, that’s what university campuses are advocating. That doesn’t make a man responsible for a woman’s safety - it makes him responsible for his own actions.

It is often what was called "wandering hands". So there's no violation.

Oh of course it’s a violation.

Why are you so desperate to defend men? Is a man in your life on trial for something?

Stop blaming the women who are violated. Hot tip: you don’t get to choose how they feel.

The female to male rape figures aren't based on biological females either

Trisher, your victim-blaming and minimising attitude is shocking. To read this openly on GN makes me think we’re back in the dark ages of ‘she must have led him on’ view of rape. Sexual assault isn’t only about rape, and harassment is another aspect.

It’s all about power and misogyny. That’s what we need to talk about.

Penetration whilst a girl is semi-conscious? Definitely the male responsibility.

But being drunk more often means putting aside inhibitions and acting in a way you wouldn’t and often can’t remember clearly.

When you’ve got two people in this state then they are equally responsible for what happens.

We fought for the right to be responsible for our own lives. Now we’re saying we can’t be held responsible for decisions we make if we’re drunk and that men should be responsible for us.

Back to the patriarchy.

You need to move away from the lib fem approach towards radical feminism . I think describing what has happened is not a victim approach. Would you say the same about someone describing the homophobia or racism they have experienced .

Trisher I am not sure where you go to for feminist debate but the idea of a curfew for men is a very common narrative on all the sites I am on.

Galaxy I disagree the 70s& 80s movements had women demanding that men should be curfewed, not women. It was much less of a victim focussed approach.

M0nica The suggestion that I might have felt unattractive in some way because I wasn't groped, is just grotesque. My sense of self esteem has never been dependent on male sexual approval, either now or in the past.
Perhaps not but then you didn't have lots of posts about other girls' experiences to read did you? Much as they may horrify us I can imagine some teenage girls wondering "What's wrong with me?"

The rate of sexual assault in the 70s and 80s was very high so not sure in what way the streets were reclaimed to be honest. Lots of the women on those marches will have been sexually assaulted. Theses young women are just using a different form of media to highlight it not matches but social media. It's the same sort of protest actually.

FFS how often do I have to say it. There is no penetration in the majority of these cases. It is often what was called "wandering hands". So there's no violation. It's a question of how much both parties are cognisant- which if they are drunk they are not-either of them, and if what happened was something one party considered the other was OK with. It used to be said that girls who got drunk were asking for trouble, now it seems that boys who get drunk are responsible for girls' safety. I would suggest it is time that we taught both sexes to take responsuibility for their own actions and stopped blaming the other party.
When we reclaimed the streets in the 70s &80s we did so as strong women who refused to be just victims. I'd like to see some of that strength returning.

Hurdygurdy to be perfectly blunt - the reason it is a male responsibility in this particular instance that you outline is because they are the active participant. An unconscious female can be penetrated. She is passive. The male is the active participant in this scenario.

Obviously no-one should drink to the point to of black out, but if someone is unconscious I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect that they are not violated whilst unable to consent.

If the person is drifting in or out of consciousness then whoever is trying to have sex with them boy girl or Guinea pig is the one who is responsible.

Peasblossom

And if a girl is drunk she can’t be held responsible for what she says and does, but if a boy is drunk he can be held responsible for what he says and does.

There seem to be some real double standards going on here.

This is what's bothering me too Peasblossom.

Do girls not need to take ANY personal responsibility here? Just the boys who must remain in control at all times?

If girls drink to the point where they are passing in and out of consciousness, and can't remember anything the next day, then where is their own responsibility for their own safety? Why is is always down to the boy to ensure the girl is definitely consenting?

(Mother of one girl, two boys btw)

Summerlove I am absolutely with you. Like you I have never been groped in any of the ways people have described. The occasional wandering hand that got a brush off, but no more.

The suggestion that I might have felt unattractive in some way because I wasn't groped, is just grotesque. My sense of self esteem has never been dependent on male sexual approval, either now or in the past.

trisher

I was wondering, are girls who have never been groped going to feel they are unattractive in some way. I'm trying quite hard to find an incident in my life when anything happened and the only ones I can remember are when I was quite interested in the boy in the first place. I know I am capable of giving off quite strong "keep your distance" signals to anyone so perhaps that's why. Or maybe I've just always been a hag.

...are you ok? Seriously, are you?

You’re now concerned that girls will feel unattractive by not being assaulted?

I also think that children of both sexes should be taught from an early age that they have autonomy over their bodies, and can say no to being tickled, kissed or whatever and expect to be respected.
I completely agree with this. A child’s “no” to touching needs to be respected by everyone. Especially family. Most importantly family.

Do parents still treat boys differently from girls? I didn't when mine were young, nor did anybody else I knew and neither DS and DDiL or any of their friends I have met treated boys differently either.

However what I have heard is several generations of girls being spoken to as if having a boyfriend and attracting male approval is an important part of their self validation and gives them status.

You know the kind of thing, 'Ooh, you will never get a boyfriend, if you act like that' .... 'wear that'. Also constantly talking to girls about when they are married and have children, Grandparents longing to see a grand daughter married and happy, all sorts of talk like that, that boys do not get. Parents may treat the children as equal, but girls still get this kind of talk from adults who should know better.

trisher

Lolo81 I didn't equate groping with girls feeling attractive I asked if girls who haven't been groped would feel they were unattractive. That isn't at all the same thing. There seems to me almost a competative attitude developing about how much a girl has been subjected to. And actually I haven't been groped, or if I have I didn't notice. I always knew I had autonomy over my own body, so I don't see how that is new. Perhaps most girls were raised to feel men have some sort of rights over them, I wasn't.
I've travelled alone to many countries and walked alone in many places. I've sat on beaches alone and swum alone and when I have been approached it was always easy to repel the man with a swift "NO" or whatever the local equivalent was. The men backed off. As I said I know I can give off a "Do not approach" vibe when I wish to and this applies to everyone, male or female.
Oh I've just remembered. Once when I was hitchhiking alone aged about 19 (the risks I took-definitely not recommended) the lorry driver pulled into a lay-by and made a suggestion. I was out of the cab before he could draw breath. I suppose he could have been taking advantage of me. On the other hand I was taking a risk.

If a girl not being groped would make her feel unattractive, the obvious conclusion from that statement is that girls who get groped are attractive.

The examples you give are you feeling uncomfortable - you had to say NO! You were in these situations and good for you, you had enough confidence to say no and feel good about it but that’s not the issue. The hitchhiker anecdote and the fact that you have your “do not approach” vibe is proof positive that the risk is there.

You wouldn’t need a do not approach vibe if there wasn’t risk - so that’s my point. Why should women in particular need to hone that skill?

It’s a culturally accepted fact that there is risk, more so for women - that is what has to change.

I think lessons about the dangers of porn are really important but I sometimes think we are asking teachers to do things that are almost impossible.