How do we stop boys who become drunk being labelled as sex predators?

Those were the days, my friend.....

Well yes, Dinahmo but while one group of friends were doing that, another two groups were knocking seven bells out of each other on Brighton beach.

Life would be so much better if we returned to the time when groups of friends would have a few joints and then drift off, after an attack of the munchies. No fighting in the street, no throwing up in the street, no litter left behind because most people were indoors. Certainly no cans and bottles to be cleared up as happened after the rave in Cardiff last night.

M0nica Thanks for that article. I just wish I could believe it's as clear cut as she says. From what I have seen young people may go 'dry' for periods of time but they also binge drink, consuming huge amounts in one weekend. Stag/hen dos, birthday parties seem to be a weekend of excess. I suppose a lot of them can't drink for weeks afterwards.

*suziewoozie, That article is damning isn't it?

However, in recent years, and I mean pre-COVID, there was clear evidence that younger age groups, including those at university are drinking less - but at the same it is clear from both the incidence and testimony of young people, how many sexual attacks and rapes involve both participants being drunk, often excessively, and how much excess drinking still takes place among university students.

I think this is caused by young people being away from home, usually for the first time, and revelling in having no 'adult' supervision of any kind, also for the first time, plus the need to 'prove' themselves with a completely new and unknown social group.

This seems to be a worldwide trend. There were so many articles about this, but this best sumes it up inews.co.uk/opinion/why-young-people-are-drinking-less-alcohol-and-what-we-can-learn-form-them-407585

www.bmj.com/bmj/section-pdf/750967?path=/bmj/348/7940/Feature.full.pdf

This article from the BMJ is one example of why drinking will continue to be encouraged by the Government. There’s going to be depressing scenes from the 12th aren’t there? Good posts NannyDa

Monica - I agree with you that alcohol should be seen as an aggravating factor rather than a mitigating one. I’m not teetotal either, but my husband became teetotal some years ago because of medication he was on at the time. Trying to explain why he was drinking soft drinks was both frustrating and laughable. He was either ‘going soft’ or the insinuation that he was an alcoholic who had given up. No thought that it may have just been his choice. He still does not drink.

As a society we have changed our attitude to smoking. I remember workplaces and cinemas etc. from the 70s and 80s and how acceptable it was then. Now it is quite rare to see someone smoking in public. I’m not saying we should ban alcohol at all but our attitude and acceptance of excesses must change.

Personally, I feel public consumption should be regulated more. If you want a drink go to a pub, bar or restaurant and drink it there. Drinking whilst walking along the street, on the beach or in parks, where there are young children around is, in my opinion, unacceptable. (But then, I was brought up to think that eating in the street was unacceptable too, and I still feel uncomfortable doing it)

Good posts from NannyDa and MOnica. I don’t see it as a mitigating factor in crime, domestic or sexual abuse. Alcohol misuse has long been a problem in the UK. Those 17th century Hogarth cartoons of gin alley remind me of heroin or alcohol addicted, desperate, mothers today.
It’s become the norm for every occasion to involve drink. High school children often have alcohol at birthday parties. Inexperience with drink and sex alongside exposure to online extreme pornography is a lethal combination.

NannDa I so agree with you. I am not teetotal, but I have never understood the attractions of alcohol. To begin with, a lot ot it doesn't taste that good when you first drink it, it is an acquired taste It has a horrible effect when you do drink it. How anyone can enjoy that spaced out whoozy feeling I do not know, let alone lose complete control of themselves. And you feel dreadful the following day or days.

You did not mention how being drunk is allowed as a mitigating factor for any aspect of bad behaviour, from personal offensiveness to serious crime.

The first move that could be done is to make alcohol and aggravating factor in everything from socially bad behaviour to every crime that ends up incourt. This already happens with drunk driving, why not with other crimes?

Trisher Apologies for linking you to my post. I was intending to respond to yours, but then changed my ind and didn't remove the link.

trisher

Summerlove I don't think women are to blame for being assaulted. I do think there is a blurred line between the events that happen between a teenage boy and girl when they are both drunk. I think people who are drunk sometimes behave out of character, take risks, lose their inhibitions and even have memory loss. And I wonder why it is boys who are drunk must remain in control but girls dont have to?

There have been references above to the behaviour of women in factories, harassing young men walking through their department. Why do you think this is? I suggest it's because the young man passing through is the only male that they can verbally attack. They can't do that to their managers (likely to be male), their bosses (almost certainly male) and even their husbands, because of the consequences. I would further comment that such behaviour is probably no longer prevalent and that it happened several years ago, long before most GNers had retired.

I feel that as a society, our whole attitude to alcohol has to change. Why do people feel they can’t have a good time without a drink in their hands or the only place to go is to the pub. That somehow “you’re not a man” unless you have six pints inside you.

Alcohol is everywhere from the supermarket to the flippant quip from TV presenters. It is embedded into our culture and everyday lives and something has to change. From domestic abuse, anti social behaviour, drunk driving, assaults, rapes – alcohol is in many, many cases lurking somewhere there in the background.

During the pandemic why the huge rush to open pubs and clubs? Why not the rush to open sports facilities and theatres?

We have been concerned about the strain and stress put on the NHS because of COVID. What about the strain and stress on the NHS because of alcohol related illnesses and accidents caused by alcohol?

Alcohol advertising is seen as glamorous and desirable. Ask the police and A&E staff who have to deal with fatal accidents caused by drunk driving, the human misery caused by domestic abuse and the sheer number of crimes and accidents caused by alcohol. A&E on a Saturday night in our local town is NOT glamorous. Losing control of all your inhibitions and bodily functions is not desirable.

The majority of the posts on the website are not from 14 year olds talking about being too drunk to consent. I saw one that said the girl/woman was passing in and out of consciousness, but in most cases (and I haven’t read it all) it is not like that at all - the girls are clearly victims of assault with no reference to alcohol.

The other story in the papers is the one I linked to upthread where head teachers are talking about how difficult it can be to be expected to arbitrate when very young people have different versions of what happened in incidents that took place out of school.

I think that the two things are different. In the former, there has definitely been assault, but in the latter, there are more grey areas. If the boy had behaved in the way of the boys/men in the testimonies on the website then it is assault, but if there was an incident where there were mixed messages or misread signals, particularly if drink was involved and memories fuzzy, then I think it would be wrong to automatically assume that only the boy was at fault, particularly as being labelled a sex offender would ruin his life.

This is not to excuse unwanted advances, and not to disbelieve girls’ accounts over those of boys. It’s just that there will be occasions when both parties are inexperienced and have different versions of events, and it would take the wisdom of Solomon to decide where the ‘truth’ lies. More education about alcohol would be really useful to stop these situations from arising.

Oh, I think I recall that case now, Suziewoozie. There was a big to-do as to whether he could go back to his football career as well?

It also now strikes me that if a boy is as equally drunk as a girl, then how does the boy know for certain that he hasn't assaulted anyone?

trisher

Summerlove I don't think women are to blame for being assaulted. I do think there is a blurred line between the events that happen between a teenage boy and girl when they are both drunk. I think people who are drunk sometimes behave out of character, take risks, lose their inhibitions and even have memory loss. And I wonder why it is boys who are drunk must remain in control but girls dont have to?

What you are talking about is different than assault. You were talking about somebody changing their mind after the fact.

That’s a very different discussion.

If that’s the discussion you want to have, then you need to actually say it.

SueDonim

How would a girl who was so drunk she passed out know that she’d been assaulted? Unless there was physical evidence. Are people suggesting girls make up stories about being assaulted?

A few years ago there was a case of a footballer accused of taping a drunk young woman. She had no memory of it but went to the police to report her lost handbag. They suggested she might have been sexually assaulted - she never said she remembered. Evidence showed intercourse had occurred. I think he was found guilty at his first trial but acquitted on appeal, iirc her sexual history was used against. her. He said she’d consented despite being blind drunk. A terrible Twitter campaign was launched against her, she was named and had to move. He admitted that he had invited two mates to watch and join in afterwards iirc- she consented of course. And she was the ‘slag’ he was just a ‘lad’

How would a girl who was so drunk she passed out know that she’d been assaulted? Unless there was physical evidence. Are people suggesting girls make up stories about being assaulted?

So does this apply to adults as well. So if someone is drunk and is assaulted would you not believe them because their memory may be impaired. Surely assault by its nature is down to the interpretation of those involved. It's why most cases arent prosecuted because unless there is evidence of violence it is actually one persons word against the other.

Mmm, trisher - I'm not looking for a fight!

I (foolishly) thought I was being helpful and that you'd just accidentally misread it!

Obviously wrong!

A child can drink from age 5 on private premises eg someone’s home

And consuming alcohol at 10 isn't legal NotSpaghetti so who is responsible for the illegal act?
Galaxy where did I say that? What happens between two drunken teenagers could be assault on either side, but it could also just be a failure to recognise signals, or to give them, because of the alcohol.

all girls, drunk or sober are victims, no girl gives a boy the ‘come on’ , any boy who make a pass at a girl is a ‘sexual predator’,

Summerlove I don't think women are to blame for being assaulted. I do think there is a blurred line between the events that happen between a teenage boy and girl when they are both drunk. I think people who are drunk sometimes behave out of character, take risks, lose their inhibitions and even have memory loss. And I wonder why it is boys who are drunk must remain in control but girls dont have to?

trisha, I think Welbek actually said the age of criminal responsibility in England is ten.