The Govenment report on Race and Ethnic Disparities is being called into question on a daily (or more) basis.

No that's not true. As I have said every school in the land is legally obliged to look at those disadvantaged by class. Now we arent getting it right God knows. But a great deal of attention is paid to that group in education. We just havent found a way to overcome the absolute disadvantage of poverty and class.

Galaxy

No that's not true. As I have said every school in the land is legally obliged to look at those disadvantaged by class. Now we arent getting it right God knows. But a great deal of attention is paid to that group in education. We just havent found a way to overcome the absolute disadvantage of poverty and class.

It doesn't seem from what Prof Matt Goodwin says the white boys are getting as much attention as you think.
As the report by the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities makes clear, they perform worse than every other ethnic group at GCSE. By the time they turn 19, white working-class youngsters are the least likely to be in higher education — just 22 per cent, compared with 45 per cent of their peers who are black and 56 per cent of Asian kids.
I have recently been advising the Education Select Committee on these issues and we have sat in on one depressing evidence session after another, hearing how it is usually white working-class kids who are at the bottom of the pile.

Growstuff, Thanks for the link and I will read it over the weekend. I shall be particularly interested in why some minority ethnic groups do well and what can be learned from that eg what, if anything insulates them from the effects of institutional racism. Hopefully there will be something on that that can be used to help less successful groups.
There's been some discussion about working class boys and without wishing to subvert the focus of this thread, there has been a resurgence of far right extremism which particularly targets disaffected white boys. This is now included in school safeguarding training. I fear we are manufacturing more Jeans (or Johns) with overtly racist views. Perhaps this is another good reason to consider how we address their particular problems?

Yes we know. But certainly in education it's not from lack of attention. It's just if you want my view mitigating the disadvantages of poverty in comparison to say the advantages of the middle class is almost impossible.

Exactly Chestnut. I also think of the way people were treated here in the 18th century when they were bunged off to Australia because they were poor or were imprisoned for stealing a loaf.

I visited a jail in Australia which had been turned into a museum, in Berrima NSW, and it was heartbreaking to see re-enactments of treatment meted out to women and children in court for stealing food. Some served their sentences others were too useful and were used to build up the country in the varying states. Slave labour ? You bet.

Look back in history, it wasn't only the blacks that were subject to slavery, so do we get rid of everything connected to Australia or the USA and start burning their flags ? It works both ways !

Agreed Ellen, this country's wealth was not only built on the back of black slaves but millions of white people working in mills and factories 12 hours a day, six days a week (including children) and living in appalling poverty. It was in effect 'slave labour'. Were they free? No, because they were trapped by poverty and lack of education and had no other choice.

I know it's anecdotal but in all the years my, now adult children were at school the top students were invariably the ones with Asian parents. They worked so hard and deserved their high marks. Their families were right behind them and obviously supportive. They turned out as doctors, lawyers and accountants. It's a small world round here and DD and DS have kept in touch. My own children did OK but they never worked as hard.

^ Some served their sentences others were too useful and were used to build up the country in the varying states. Slave labour ? You bet.^

We've had discussions like this before. Convicts transported to Australia were not slaves. Once they had finished their sentences they were free. Their conditions were similar to slavery, but it was not the same. Slaves were never free; they were actually the property of the person they worked for. Convicts never were.

Look back in history, it wasn't only the blacks that were subject to slavery,

Yes, that 's true, but I don't think it's true in quite the way you're talking of.

The real problem with Australia, the USA, and other countries is their treatment of the people who actually lived there before the Europeans took over...

Legally, the people working in factories were not slaves. They did have a choice to leave and their children were born free not enslaved. Many people working in factories chose to work there rather than on the land. Nobody dragged them out of the fields to work in a factory, nor did they lack legal rights.

There is no comparison.

How many people have read the full report yet?

foxie48

Growstuff, Thanks for the link and I will read it over the weekend. I shall be particularly interested in why some minority ethnic groups do well and what can be learned from that eg what, if anything insulates them from the effects of institutional racism. Hopefully there will be something on that that can be used to help less successful groups.
There's been some discussion about working class boys and without wishing to subvert the focus of this thread, there has been a resurgence of far right extremism which particularly targets disaffected white boys. This is now included in school safeguarding training. I fear we are manufacturing more Jeans (or Johns) with overtly racist views. Perhaps this is another good reason to consider how we address their particular problems?

Unfortunately foxie48, it says very little in depth. People who have read the report will realise it omits or glosses over much - and that is why so many people are criticising it. Either the issues of racism were discredited or ignored. There is little attempt to grasp some very complex problems. So-called solution are sometimes laughingly simplistic, such as looking to the TV programme Dragons’ Den for answers.

By the way, I do agree with you that the issue of white working class boys' low attainment at school needs some solutions, but setting them up against children from other backgrounds isn't the way to do that. It's already known that there's a tendency for the white working class in some areas to have racist, right wing views, so there's no need to encourage them, apart from touting for their votes.

There are examples of white slavery, for example in Robert Davis' book 'Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters' he speaks of more than a million European Christians enslaved in North Africa between 1530 and 1780.

White slaves were also to be found in ancient Rome and the Ottoman Empire so it is correct to say "it wasn't only the blacks that were subject to slavery" as they were the property of another so never free.

Chestnut

^Yes, white boys from certain backgrounds are disadvantaged. Dos that mean we can't talk about the black ones who are?^
I think the point being made is that there is a great deal of talking now about black and ethnic minorities being disadvantaged and very little attention paid to poor white youngsters, which is why they have been slipping downwards for some time.

That's just not true. The schools attended by all poor children receive Pupil Premium and there are hundreds of schemes to support them. In some cases, they are offered places at university with lower grades than the norm.

Schools are obliged to account for Pupil Premium money and have to publish what is called the "attainment gap" ie the difference between the average pupil eligible for Pupil Premium and those who aren't.

growstuff

Legally, the people working in factories were not slaves. They did have a choice to leave and their children were born free not enslaved. Many people working in factories chose to work there rather than on the land. Nobody dragged them out of the fields to work in a factory, nor did they lack legal rights.

There is no comparison.

I've just said they were enslaved by poverty and lack of education. So not really free. Working on the land was equally back breaking and very low-paid, so maybe they got a few more pennies in the factories and could buy a bit more food for their children. Not much of a choice really. They had no pensions and worked until they dropped. Many were owned by their employers and could not work elsewhere. I can't see their everyday lives were any better than slaves and in law they had very few rights too. So there is a comparison.

I disagree. I understand the living conditions of many factory workers, but there's a huge difference. Legally, they weren't slaves.

growstuff

I disagree. I understand the living conditions of many factory workers, but there's a huge difference. Legally, they weren't slaves.

That is the only difference. They lived in poverty and were forced to work just as hard. No-one looked after them or provided food or shelter for them either.

growstuff there is still a stigma attached to those at uni who don't come from a privileged background, because those who do, stick together with their own class.
It's still a place of alienation and being underrepresented if you have a working class background, besides being mocked. It's high time that they were accepted for what they are.

growstuff

By the way, I do agree with you that the issue of white working class boys' low attainment at school needs some solutions, but setting them up against children from other backgrounds isn't the way to do that. It's already known that there's a tendency for the white working class in some areas to have racist, right wing views, so there's no need to encourage them, apart from touting for their votes.

Do you not think that the reason some might have right wing views could be because the only political parties which seem to bother about them are extreme parties? I'm of the opinion that the Labour Party don't give two hoots about the working class, ironically they have forgotten who they were supposed to be representing. Most Labour MPs are middle class; they don't have a clue about what it means to be on the bottom of the pile. Tony Blair wanting to court 'Mondeo Man' was part of it but sometimes I think that no-one really bothers about those of us who still call ourselves working class ,unless we are cannon fodder.

BTW I went to University and definitely noticed that the middle class students didn't mix with us working class students. There was a class divide, as plain as the nose on your face.

No, I don't agree with you.

I think the Labour Party does care about the poorest in society. "Working class" is fairly meaningless these days.

I think there are people who choose to blame "others" for their own misfortune and it's very easy for some with ideological reasons for hatred of others to manipulate them.

Right wingers thrive on division and tribalism.

By the way, this thread is about the government's report. Rather than hijacking it by discussions of slavery and/or racism, maybe somebody should start a new thread.

How many people have actually read the full report rather than the cherry picked soundbites?

Loislovesstewie

BTW I went to University and definitely noticed that the middle class students didn't mix with us working class students. There was a class divide, as plain as the nose on your face.

Did you wear badges? How did they know?

I must admit it's not something I ever noticed.

I suspect that I had a very strong accent that marked me out; the fact that I had far fewer possessions;clothes etc, no expensive stereo and (shock, horror) got a full grant as we had no money! Neither did my dad deposit me at the door of my student accommodation by means of a fancy new car. It was an old crate and was the first he had ever owned.
And I do believe the Labour Party doesn't care about the working class. And I believe that class still exists.