Gransnet forums

News & politics

A year of Starmer What do you think?

(617 Posts)
Grany Tue 06-Apr-21 12:38:38

A piece by Jonathan Cook an award winning journalist

www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/keir-starmer-cautious-tearing-uk-labour-party-apart

I suppose Starmer's poll ratings could improve

growstuff Thu 08-Apr-21 12:15:02

The very last thing anybody should do is try to persuade people they were stupid to vote for Brexit. I might think it to myself and I do certainly regret it, but it happened and I genuinely think the country needs to find a way of making the best of a bad job. You cannot tell people they were stupid for doing something they did in good faith - let them find out for themselves what the consequences are. Meanwhile, make sure that nothing else is used as a scapegoat. I only wish the majority of people were more politically clued up and understood what's going on, but I can't force them to do that.

As for a coalition ...

I've thought about and I don't think it would work. I am a paid up member of the LibDems, but I wish for a Labour government. So why don't I join the Labour Party? I've certainly thought about it, but my constituency is a solid Conservative seat. At a national level it doesn't matter what I vote, but it does matter at local level, where we do have some very effective LibDem councillors and I will continue to support them. Labour doesn't even get a look in round here.

I think that a national level the handful of LibDems and Greens (Caroline Lucas) would run the risk of losing their seats if they went into coalition with Labour and would deny people a choice. People vote LibDem in national elections for a reason and they don't want a Labour MP. If they did, they'd vote Labour. In practice, most of the opposition parties vote with Labour against the government anyway.

Whitewavemark2 Thu 08-Apr-21 12:05:00

Labour members asked if Starmer was better or worse than Corbyn

Better 61%
Worse 29%
You gov Mch 2021

Casdon Thu 08-Apr-21 12:01:04

Okay MaizieD you did ask, this is my opinion. Most of the voting public distrust what they would class as ‘extremism’ in any form, they are essentially conservative with a small ‘c’. Many support socialist principles in a watered down form, but they don’t trust pacifists, they don’t espouse measures which make sweeping steps towards the elimination of unfairness in society even when they are themselves victims because it’s not how they see the world or themselves, although incremental change is palatable, and they value leaders who they perceive to be articulate and principled - but they also want some charisma. Many believe press and social media reports, they don’t care enough to delve beneath the headlines. It’s pointless railing at the press and social media, they are what they are - lies can be challenged, but once said mud sticks. It’s far more effective to try to win them over.

There are many people who are very passionate about politics, but they aren’t, and won’t ever be in the majority, in fact they turn other people off. That’s what Starmer has recognised and is using to develop a slightly left of centre agenda - it’s the only way to challenge the Tories that has a chance of succeeding.

PippaZ Thu 08-Apr-21 11:55:15

Galaxy

Sorry but that's exactly what the labour party shouldn't do. The cognitive dissonance in that letter is incredible. We should campaign for a return to democracy whilst explaining how stupid the public were to vote Brexit. Breathtaking.

My goodness "cognitive dissonance" indeed. I can't see anywhere where he says KS should explain "how stupid the public were to vote Brexit" and I can't see any conflicting attitudes - except, perhaps, with yours.

He is putting forward what he thinks the LP should do and I feel it is worth considering. You don't but I don't think the makes it "Breathtaking".

You are doing what another member always does on this forum and attacking without either explanation or suggestion of an alternative and this does not add anything to the debate; it's just a personal attack.

Gossamerbeynon1945 Thu 08-Apr-21 11:45:12

Were you aware that the Green Party call women "non men", and Plaid Cymry agree!

trisher Thu 08-Apr-21 11:44:48

Gossamerbeynon1945

I don't hate trans people, but do they belong in women's prisons and a lot of other place. Women fought hard fort single sex places, and now it seems it is going to be taken away.

I think it is basic biology

The law is quite clear on this if there is a good enough reason for excluding them transpeople (even those with a GRA) can be excluded from single sex services and places. As an example if a rape crisis centre considers women wouldn't attend if transwomen were present they could be banned. The fact that it hasn't been properly applied in the past is no reason to condemn trans people.
There is now a special prison for trans people.

MaizieD Thu 08-Apr-21 11:34:36

Galaxy

Because they dont get involved in it. They dont care as long as she is one of them. They have been in power for the majority of my life. I dont agree with pretty much anything claire fox says by the way.

I would never think for one minute that you did agree with Fox, Galaxy.

But tories who like to glibly talk about communists and marxists in the LP seem quite happy about having one ennobled by their tory PM...

I'm not getting any enlightenment, I see...

Galaxy Thu 08-Apr-21 11:24:54

Sorry but that's exactly what the labour party shouldn't do. The cognitive dissonance in that letter is incredible. We should campaign for a return to democracy whilst explaining how stupid the public were to vote Brexit. Breathtaking.

Gossamerbeynon1945 Thu 08-Apr-21 11:16:25

I don't hate trans people, but do they belong in women's prisons and a lot of other place. Women fought hard fort single sex places, and now it seems it is going to be taken away.

I think it is basic biology

PippaZ Thu 08-Apr-21 11:15:48

Yesterday I suggested that the only answer was for the opposition parties to join together. This guy says it better than I can. As it was an open letter to Keir Starmer I have copied it over.

Dear Keir,

I am 81. I have always voted Labour, or – since I now live in a Conservative/LibDem marginal – LibDem. I was a strong Remainer. My career has been mainly in public service here and abroad in the environmental sector. Now you know “where I come from”.

The Conservative Party has morphed from a centre right party into the English National Party. The name has not changed but its core philosophy has altered fundamentally. I get the impression that the Labour Party has not realised the full significance of this. And perhaps the English have been slow to see it – but it is very apparent to people living in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

One thing ought to be clear: the Labour Party cannot be a second English National Party. Waving union flags and beating jingoistic drums (albeit more softly) will never convince those who want the true thing and will embarrass and alienate those who find this kind of gesture nationalism offensive. And yet the government has been able to define this as the playing field upon which you feel you are required to operate.

Stand back and see what is happening to our politics. The government has attacked key institutions and processes that might stand in its way by illegally proroguing Parliament, breaking international law and aiming to roll back judicial review. It is threatening to restrict the rights of democratic protest. It wishes to make it more difficult for marginalised groups to vote (c.f. the Republican Party). It intimidates and undermines the independence of the BBC (as if it did not already have overwhelming and largely uncritical support from the MSM). It is ready to provoke a series of skirmishes in the ‘woke wars’ designed to keep alive the “anti-elite” resentment that played so well for Johnson et al in 2016 and 2019. It is happy to project a mildly delinquent image of the UK on the international stage in the name of sovereignty.

Many see this as the first steps towards a very British kind of fascism, or at least a drift towards a Hungary-style, one-party state. Even if you are reluctant to describe what is happening in those terms, it is clearly a deliberate and sustained assault on many of our tolerant traditions and democratic ways of working. And it is also an attempt to create the conditions in which lies, distortion and corruption go unchallenged and where our leaders use every device to avoid accountability (for COVID errors, for personal failings and policy disasters too numerous to list).

This is not politics as usual, nor can it be addressed through politics as normal. Given how our electoral system works, the Labour Party can only win power if it responds to the current crisis for British democracy by adopting a radically different way of working which completely re-sets the political landscape. In short, it needs to be bold in a way that it has – sadly – not so far shown an appetite for.

To grasp the political initiative, the Labour Party should declare that it believes there is now an unprecedented threat to our democracy which calls for unprecedented measures by all who value our democratic traditions: and that you are therefore inviting all other opposition parties – the Greens, the LibDems, the SNP, Plaid Cymru, the Alliance Party, and the Social Democratic and Labour Party – to join Labour in forming an Alliance for Progressive Democracy, to confront the slide into narrow English nationalism.

Such an alliance, would be confined to democracy-related issues and would be an arrangement for the rest of this Parliament only. Basically, it would be a time-limited political truce – rather like the war-time coalition – with three specific aims:

to join together to confront the Government at every turn in Parliament, in the courts and in other ways when it threatens democratic institutions and processes. It won’t stop it, but it will make the progress of legislation more difficult and controversial.
to raise public awareness of the threats to our democracy so that it is talked about and properly covered in the MSM and on the BBC. Brexit taught us two things: a matter of marginal interest to most people before 2016 was skilfully manipulated into becoming the defining issue and fault line in UK politics; and not all politics is about bread-and-butter issues. Why wouldn’t a rallying call to ‘Defend our Democracy’ – there’s your three word slogan – achieve comparable success?
to discuss and seek agreement on the elements of constitutional change we want to see in the UK so that democracy is made safe in future. This may be no more than reaching agreement before the next election on the need for a Royal Commission on a written constitution and on a few principles for a new voting system based on Proportional Representation (PR) rather than First Past the Post (FPTP). Obviously, the pressure for a Scottish referendum will greatly complicate matters, but that is no reason not to explore the common ground with as many of the parties to the alliance as possible.
Just think how such an initiative by this group of parties might alter the political landscape. You would be setting the agenda, not following that of the government. The government would be faced with a combined opposition that would represent 57% of the 2019 vote. Public opinion would be awakened to the real threat to our rights and privileges. Many voters would respond positively to the unusual sight of parties working together. Millions, young people especially, who feel politically homeless at present would have a cause to rally to. And the ground could be laid for a winning alliance at the 2024 election.

Perhaps it is naïve to hope for a bold cross-party initiative like this, but I believe that politics as usual is not up the task of defending democracy against the threats it now faces and that it falls to the party you lead to show a different way forward.

Yours etc.

Adrian Phillips

Galaxy Thu 08-Apr-21 10:52:44

Because they dont get involved in it. They dont care as long as she is one of them. They have been in power for the majority of my life. I dont agree with pretty much anything claire fox says by the way.

MaizieD Thu 08-Apr-21 10:03:34

lemongrove

You don’t know what far left views are Maizie? ?
You do know of course that under Corbyn membership increased? Yes? All the closet ( and open) Marxist, Communists, and assorted far left all clamoured to join up.

No, I don't, lemon.

How about, as the fount of all wisdom, you actually tell me, instead of throwing empty words around?

Perhaps you'd like to tell me why tory peer, Claire Fox. IRA supporter and former Revolutionary Communist, doesn't blacken the name of the tory party while you're at it..

lemongrove Thu 08-Apr-21 09:42:38

Grany voters know what they want, and they know what they don’t want, regardless of media coverage.They didn’t want Corbyn and all that he represented.They may want Starmer.

lemongrove Thu 08-Apr-21 09:39:14

You don’t know what far left views are Maizie? ?
You do know of course that under Corbyn membership increased? Yes? All the closet ( and open) Marxist, Communists, and assorted far left all clamoured to join up.

Grany Thu 08-Apr-21 09:35:41

All I can say is the Establishment do not want a socialist government They wouldn't let Michael Foot win.

I can't say more than that really that is the way it is in this country.

There are alternate media to mainstream people are working to better change things.

MaizieD Thu 08-Apr-21 09:34:53

then those members with dissenting views will leave and over time be replaced with less Far left wing views.

The thing that has both puzzled and frustrated me over the past few years is that no-one has ever clarified what these 'far left' views actually are. They just throw the stupid phrase into the discussion. It's meaningless.

Would someone please itemise exactly what these far left views are?

As a bonus they might be able to explain what is so pernicious about them...

trisher Thu 08-Apr-21 09:32:33

trisher I could have written your reply word for word, as it seems to be a stock response from you to any question about trans issues grin. Do you ever engage with posters and answer off the cuff? Sometimes it feels like listening to a politician on PMQ.
I suppose I could just say "yes" but actually i think people who ask me something want a litle bit more. Sorry it's not spontaneous enough for you, but it's actually the way I think and generally write.
I do not believe party members schemed to lose a general election.
But Annie heaps of people do believe that and Starmer had an ideal opportunity to squash those beliefs, by allowing the investigation to report. He chose not to, which means either he didn't want to clean things up or he feared what would come out. Either way it's still lousy leadership.

Anniebach Thu 08-Apr-21 09:24:37

No one can unite the Labour Party , Corbyn plotted against
Kinnock and this after the disastrous Michael Foot election

lemongrove Thu 08-Apr-21 09:19:38

I think that Keir Starmer was the best choice out of the candidates who were put forward for the post.That doesn’t mean he was the best choice of course. He seems like a decent character, a family man, and is intelligent and speaks well, and keeps calm under fire. All good things but...that doesn’t mean he will be a good LOTO or in the future a PM.
Theresa May was all of those things and made a poor PM.
It was blindingly obvious that Corbyn would do badly and that traditional Labour voters wanted nothing to do with him.
So the Labour party have chosen somebody who is nothing like him as an antidote. I think he could do well ( with voters)
But he needs to unite the whole of the membership ( or as much as he can) and it’s this that is proving really difficult.
If he can’t unite the Party, but does really well with voters at the next GE and becomes PM, then those members with dissenting views will leave and over time be replaced with less
Far left wing views.

Grany Thu 08-Apr-21 09:00:58

Starmer has decided to use false allegations of antisemitism as his principal weapon against the Left

Everything that Corbyn said was incontrovertibly true. The prevalence of antisemitism in the Labour Party was indeed ‘dramatically overstated’ in every conceivable way.

This propaganda campaign is not really about Corbyn as an individual. It’s a vicious attack on everyone who supported his political project after 2015.

The Labour left can either accept being presented as a uniquely malevolent force in British politics on the basis of sheer fantasy, or else defend the right of party members to state the facts without being subjected to disciplinary action.

The leading figures on the Labour left have been urging members to “stay and fight,” but so far it’s been all stay and no fight. They’ve brought a petition to a barroom brawl, and it’s little wonder that Starmer is now twenty points ahead in the battle he really cares about, against his inner-party foes. Whether they decide to stay in the Labour Party or take their chances outside, socialists in Britain should see Starmer in exactly the same way that he sees them, as an opponent to be fought against at every turn.

The Green New Deal was not radicalism for its own sake. It was radical because reality demanded it. Faced with the 2008 global financial crisis and its aftermath, the world-historic presence of China, Trump, the escalating climate crisis, and an unprecedented global pandemic, what more is needed to demonstrate this point? A politics that does not want to mobilize around these challenges, which prefers to deal in patriotic pastiche, forfeits any claim to be progressive.

Adam Tooze recently complained about this “retreat from radicalism” into a “dangerous dead-end.” Tooze was particularly concerned about Starmer’s willingness to junk the plan for ecological transformation:

Starmer and his team have set out to bury the left-wing policy agenda developed under Corbyn, replacing it with a bland managerial approach that promises as little as possible.

Anniebach Thu 08-Apr-21 08:58:39

I do not believe party members schemed to lose a general election.

Galaxy Thu 08-Apr-21 08:55:23

Oh without a doubt there was scheming, anyone who has any connection with the labour party, or any political party for that matter, know that there is always scheming. It's part of leading a party to manage it.

Anniebach Thu 08-Apr-21 08:49:05

Iam I posted facts, wish the far left here could do the same,

Corbyn lost the general elections, no scheming within Labour HQ, no saying voters didn’t have minds of their own and followed the right wing press like sheep.

Galaxy Thu 08-Apr-21 08:45:03

I have just been reading the breakdown of labour party membership, majority London, majority high earners/middle class majority remain voters. Obviously membership of a political party is in itself an unusual activity but no wonder the views of the membership dont reflect the views of the voting public.

Iam64 Thu 08-Apr-21 08:34:56

Doodledog 07.04.21 at 18.58 - good post. I responded yesterday but the gransnet gremlins didn’t let me post.
Anniebach, good perseverance on the response of the electorate to Labour leaders they see as too much to the left - and to Blair
Tory governments don’t invest in public services. The austerity agenda should have given the LP an election win. I don’t share the view that some right wingers in the party led to its worst defeat.