Anyone understand why Johnson is so far ahead in the polls? ( 2)

MaizieD

^They are not impressed to see Starmer in a John Lewis store brandishing a roll of wallpaper. They don't care about Boris's decorating.^

Well, there you have it in a nutshell. Tory voters have no sense of humour and they're happy with corruption.

How Labour are going to counteract that is a mystery.

Agreed, MaisieD, and it's depressing.

I don't understand why people don't care about the corruption. His decorating, his nanny, his mistress, and now his Caribbean holiday! How can people think that this is acceptable? I don't know how any party can counteract it - I can't even explain it.

Is is deference to privilege? Is it a genuine lowering of standards of decency? Is it really that people are so enamoured of a bumbling 'man of the people' persona that they don't care that he would rather have bodies piling up in the streets than see his mates lose profits? That they were happy to have decades of Austerity because 'there was no alternative', but aren't asking where the money is coming from to fund furlough, so long as they keep getting paid and aren't expected to live on Universal Credit like the people they despise?

It makes no sense to me at all, so I can't begin to think how an opposition of any colour can begin to know where to start.

MayBee70

There are a lot of comparisons with current politics and the Weimar Republic. Thankfully, at least Trump is gone.

Oh MayBee, I also find this is true and so very, very depressing and concerning. Does make me wonder if democracy is the right way forward.

Still would like to see major electorial reforms.
1. Compulsory voting - can abstain on ballot paper
2. proper system of having transferrable votesd fr second or third choices on subsequent ballots.

Would be so interesting to see how No. 2 would have actually changed anything in these last elections.

Great post Doodledog

Ilovecheese

So getting rid of any left wingers remaining in a supposedly left wing party will really reunify the party and lead to more votes.

It might get lemon's vote

Mamardoit

It makes as much sense as using Nazi Germany as some sort of comparison to people voting Tory.

It was about people voting in the person who had such an effect on so many people who have died. People who voted for the man who offered them just what they thought they wanted - even though what he offered was never possible. So many comparisons not of voting Tory - although it was in this case - but in voting for a clown with lollipops. This time he has a silly haircut that time it was a silly moustache but both with arms full of promises that mean nothing.

I imagine it will be difficult for those who wanted him to see just what they have done - just as the German people shut their eyes at that time to what was being done in their name.

I have no way of altering what happens in Leicester. As I explained, unlike those whose vote has affected us all I cannot alter the Leicester constituency votes for their council as I do not live their and I did not vote for Bozo's government that will not fund the Labour council's properly.

Just to clarify - as you seem not to understand. In both case I compared people who voted for the leader can be seen to bear some responsibility. In the other no one outside Leicester and not voting for the current government can possibly be responsible for the Leicester council. There was nothing more they could do. It is an illegitimate argument.

Oh, and the comparison was not between Nazi Germany and people voting Tory. It was about two groups of people who were both deceive by extreme lies and propaganda but continued to find the deception easier to believe than the truth.

In both case I compared people who voted for the leader can be seen to bear some responsibility

In one case I compared people who voted for the leader can therefore be seen to bear some responsibility.

I don’t think there is any effective opposition. Not good for the country. Since Tony Blair and ‘New Labour’ the party has been well and truly out of touch with their core membership and it’s taken a disastrous night at the polls to bring that home. Labour need a root and branch revisiting of their policies and they need to get back in touch with the working people of this country if they’re ever to get back into government. Until then we’re stuck with a Tory government who have to be shamed into doing anything for people in genuine need. The fact that in the 21st Century a wealthy nation like the UK has people relying on food banks is a national disgrace.

The problem is that Labour's historic "core membership" doesn't exist any more - at least, not in the way it did in the past. It was based on heavy industries, which have gone, unions, which are nowhere near so powerful, and the non-conformist churches, which are far less influential.

The Conservative Party in the UK are like the overlords in their castles and the opposition parties are floundering to find strategies to attack. They need to bring together groups with different aims in enough numbers to make an effective attack, which isn't easy.

I will never understand how Boris got in to No. 10 in the first place. Corruption, lies, etc just seem to be invisible where he is concerned. The Labour Party still isn’t a strong enough party but I do hope that they don’t get Corbyn back as he was dire. This is the worst government ever and it is like being on a speeding train and none of us can get off.

growstuff

The problem is that Labour's historic "core membership" doesn't exist any more - at least, not in the way it did in the past. It was based on heavy industries, which have gone, unions, which are nowhere near so powerful, and the non-conformist churches, which are far less influential.

The Conservative Party in the UK are like the overlords in their castles and the opposition parties are floundering to find strategies to attack. They need to bring together groups with different aims in enough numbers to make an effective attack, which isn't easy.

But the Conservative "core" is dying off - literally. Are the next generations going to replace them? I don't think they were quite as big were they and we may be going into a time where people are more fickle with their vote.

Purplepixie........BJ got in because the then labour leader was unelectable. He was also a Brexiteer and basically lied about that. The LibDum option was an idiot. She fully intended to ignore the outcome of a second brexit vote if the vote didn't go her way. Sod democracy then.

I find these constant comparisons with Hitler and Nazi Germany both uninformed and distasteful.
Certainly Hitler was voted in in the first place, but the reason he remained in power was because of fear. Are you really claiming that people are voting Tory because they’re afraid not to do so?
In Nazi Germany, commenting like we are allowed to do on here would have meant severe reprisals.
If BJ had the power Hitler had, he could indeed have imposed a tighter lockdown. We would have worn masks and obeyed rules instead of talking about our rights.
It won’t take a war to get rid of the Tory party, but to get Labour back in power, we need more people with realistic ideas, and the courage to state them so that people stop looking back to the last Labour governments and thinking it wouldn’t be any different if they were in power now.
Feel free to disagree, as I’m sure some of you will, and volubly, but did any of you know what it was actually like to live in Nazi Germany?

If BJ had the power Hitler had, he could indeed have imposed a tighter lockdown.

BJ did have the power and he did what he chose to do, i.e., not attend Cobra meetings and not to lock down for some time and then not to keep things tight when we needed it to be so. Hence the very high level of deaths. He is a Liberal at heart and believes we should all - including himself -be able to just as we like. You may accuse others of being uninformed but it would lend a little more truth to those accusations if you yourself were informed.

Not only that but, every time there was a lockdown he gave people enough notice to have a weekend of super spreader events each time. And look what would have happened if he’d had is way over celebrating Christmas for a week! And we’ve got the India variant because he didn’t impose quarantine restrictions on flights from India sooner. So much for taking control of our borders. People have short memories but I won’t forget those things in a hurry.

... but did any of you know what it was actually like to live in Nazi Germany?

Not during the war but my father was posted there immediately at the end of the war and we continued to live there - with a few gaps at home - until I was four in 191953/54. My parents had many German friends after the first few years when they were not allowed to and I was born there - into what had been an almost totally bombed out of existence Hamburg, where the people worked all day and then went home to rebuild their city. We learnt a lot about the people and they were generally still very bemused by what had happened. The lies were so big that it was difficult to believe they were not true.

Germans and people of other countries that put popular leaders into power who subsequently become dictators are no different to us. This can happen anywhere. Letting Johnson off the hook for the failures over Covid is no different to other countries excusing latent dictators.

PippaZ no he didn’t. That’s what I mean about not understanding about Nazi Germany and Hitler. He may not have done what he should, but when rules were issued, people chose whether to ignore or adapt them without fear of death or concentration camp.

A reign of terror may often succeed. Let us all hope that is not where our right wing government is taking us

Ilovecheese

So getting rid of any left wingers remaining in a supposedly left wing party will really reunify the party and lead to more votes.

My comment was getting rid of Corbyn fans from his Shadow Cabinet, not in the LP.
If he can do that, and keep a softer left approach then he will appeal to a wider voting base.He should stop trying to reunify the party, it can’t be done and he will end up pleasing nobody!
He needs to think about what will get his party actually elected.If the Labour membership shrinks as a result, so what.
Actual voters have their say at a GE.

Well Boris may have lost Cummings but he has Gove and he has Mogg. Two of his personal and professional friends who appear to have their careers long term intertwined with his and have his back. Both great debaters too (like the late Charles Kennedy). Angela Rayner will have her work cut out keeping up with GoveI fear. I feel the Cabinet is less chaos than the media claim.

Mollygo

I find these constant comparisons with Hitler and Nazi Germany both uninformed and distasteful.
Certainly Hitler was voted in in the first place, but the reason he remained in power was because of fear. Are you really claiming that people are voting Tory because they’re afraid not to do so?
In Nazi Germany, commenting like we are allowed to do on here would have meant severe reprisals.
If BJ had the power Hitler had, he could indeed have imposed a tighter lockdown. We would have worn masks and obeyed rules instead of talking about our rights.
It won’t take a war to get rid of the Tory party, but to get Labour back in power, we need more people with realistic ideas, and the courage to state them so that people stop looking back to the last Labour governments and thinking it wouldn’t be any different if they were in power now.
Feel free to disagree, as I’m sure some of you will, and volubly, but did any of you know what it was actually like to live in Nazi Germany?

Excellent post Mollygo ??????

I don’t know how Hitler and the Nazis got brought into this thread, but they are usually brought out on forums when somebody has lost the plot.

Urmstongran

Well Boris may have lost Cummings but he has Gove and he has Mogg. Two of his personal and professional friends who appear to have their careers long term intertwined with his and have his back. Both great debaters too (like the late Charles Kennedy). Angela Rayner will have her work cut out keeping up with GoveI fear. I feel the Cabinet is less chaos than the media claim.

Sorry UG I'm not stalking you, but...

The only reason Gove has his back is so that he can plunge the knife in at the first opportunity.

Gove is not a great debater, he talks to people as though they are s*** on his shoe and he's explaining it to a slightly slow child. Or is that Rees-Mogg? Much of a muchness.

I think Keir Starmer doesn’t come over as authentic. His opinions can flip flop. He was a Remainer and doesn’t know how to fulfil Brexit. Taking the knee in his office was, for most of the electorate, cringeworthy.

We don’t know what he stands for but he has promised to change the Gender Recognition Act - making it possible to legally change gender without a medical diagnosis, regardless of the risks for women’s privacy and security.

The majority of the voters just don’t care about such issues. We are the silent majority. Which is why the pollsters get it wrong, time after time.

Hi Alegrias ??

And Rees-Mogg and Gove 'come over as authentic' - really ?

Authentic something/s for sure- not printable here.

We don’t know what he stands for but he has promised to change the Gender Recognition Act - making it possible to legally change gender without a medical diagnosis, regardless of the risks for women’s privacy and security.

There are a lot of feminists who bitterly resent this, but can't find a party who will stop the slide towards 'female' being women and men who say they are women' and 'male' being men, with all the traditional advantages that that brings. I think that the cowardice in the face of the trans lobby will undo a lot of politicians (in all parties, including the SNP) when women wake up to what this is likely to mean for them and their daughters. No right to ask for a biologically female doctor in a rape suite, no protection from upskirting cross-dressers in unisex loos, and Trevor from Accounts shooting to the top of the all-female shortlist because he identified as Barbara on the application form.

This is not to say that misgendered people should not be given all the help, support and protection that they need, and treated as members of their transitioned gender when they have transitioned. It does mean that there is a need for lines to be drawn to protect biological women, however, and not to let us sleepwalk into Gilead.