Who gives a t*ss?

GG13 The difference is Johnson is being villified for his actions now whereas the other two were in power 20 years ago. What they did was important that the time and have had long term ramifications. However, we are concerned with the present and Johnson's actions have been dire too.

Please don't mention the vaccine roll out. Johnson was, I assume, partly responsible for hiring Kate Bingham (who has just been made a dame) at someone else's recommendation. But, it was the NHS, the army and the thousands of volunteers who organised the roll out. All he said was get it done. Which many other people could also have said.

Just saying, if you want to influence the undecided, disillusioned voter (me), if you want my vote, pulling in Campbell as your spokesman isn’t going to do it.

But if you don’t want my vote, it doesn’t matter at all.

You’ll have the comfort of knowing you won the argument.

Many people on here are lambasting Blair and Campbell for what they did 20 odd years ago. So I would ask you to cast your minds back to Churchill, who most people would agree, was a hero during WW2.

Churchill's earlier history was quite different.

The Siege of Sydney Street in 1911 when he was Home Secretary. He went to Stepney to watch the action, which was filmed by Pathe News. When the newsreel was shown in cinemas and Churchill was clearly visible, he was booed by the audience.

Following the Irish Uprising in 1916, Churchill as Minister for War and the War Cabinet were unable to come to terms with the rise of Irish Republicanism. In 1920 he sent in the Black and Tans, a force of temporary constables recruited to assist the Royal Irish Constabulary in keeping order. A fairly devastating error.

During his 5 years as Chancellor of the Exchequer his actions led to the miners' strike and ultimately to the General Strike of 1926.

All in all the history of his earlier years (apart from the Boer War when he was regarded as a hero) was not good.

Despite all this, he was and still is thought of as a hero.

The constant references to the Iraq War are quite interesting.
For several months during the run up and then during that war my OH and I had several arguments with friends, who were either LP supporters or members and who all accepted the arguments put forward for the war.

My OH was part of the large samba band organised by the London School of Samba that formed part of the march against the Iraq War. I didn't go because I was ill. I don't suppose now that anybody who supported the war at that time would still agree with their then position. But I suspect that many on here would have supported the war at the time.

PippaZ yet again you are making assumptions about what I may/may not delight in

You asked a question regarding the G7 tax implications and my not posting about it, I reminded you that I had already done so.

I wonder why the opposition parties (Labour in particularly) are relying on yesterdays men , why not use some of the current politicians to get their current points/policies across?

Like my reply to growstuff our current PM is constantly accused of being a liar and a charlatan, if it’s ok to vilify the PM then it is totally ok to vilify Alastair Campbell and Tony Blair.

He’s right though isn’t he?

GrannyGravy13

growstuff

Such considerations don't appear to matter these days Lucca.

I wonder if Johnson's mistakes and misdemeanours should be wheeled out every time he opens his mouth.

But they are growstuff over and over again daily on multiple threads on GN

As they should be until people recognise that there is at least an element of truth in the recounting of Johnson's lies. Many of which are well documented, yet people still don't accept them.

GrannyGravy13

PippaZ

But we have just discovered many don't offer views. You have come on here, as does Peasblossom, just to talk personality and how people have been in the past.

I don't see you starting a conversation about the new tax rules agreed by the G7 - which is about now and our future. It's all about the personality not about the policy GrannyGravy13 and that is soul-destroying and does make it look as if some do not give a toss about what is happening to others or our country in general.

I am not going to be drawn into he said/she did arguments of long ago so unless you are talking about the text of the OP I will leave you to wallow together in the past.

Wrong again (it’s becoming a habit)

I posted about the G7 agreeing new corporation tax for tech companies on this very thread yesterday.

Like I said to MaizieD please continue to post my thoughts as you obviously know them (not)

You cannot keep dismissing yesterday's people/MP’s when they are constantly being rolled out on mainstream TV news programs, we were subjected to Tony Blair’s views on Andrew Marr only this morning.

But I am not the one dismissing what people say today because of what they did yesterday GrannyGravy13. I think these people still have something to say. Sometimes I may agree and sometimes I may not but it was not me who dismissed them because of something that happened decades ago.

I will avoid the schadenfreude that you seem to delight in.

growstuff

Such considerations don't appear to matter these days Lucca.

I wonder if Johnson's mistakes and misdemeanours should be wheeled out every time he opens his mouth.

But they are growstuff over and over again daily on multiple threads on GN

I apologize if my original post (Sat 05-Jun-21 10:05:43 ) was confusing: it was a hasty post. It seemed to me that several posters did not want to debate AC's opinions and discuss whether they were fair, instead they wanted to revisit his own 'sins'.

He was called a liar by GrannyGravy13 (Fri 04-Jun-21 14:10:23): ”He is a liar and a complete charlatan with an axe to grind.”
Hence my comment ”Even a lier sometimes tells the truth”.

My post echoed MaizieD's (Fri 04-Jun-21 15:22:20): "So where is Campbell lying in this article?

”Everything he says about Johnson is true. It's quite amusing that people are whatabouting about one instance of lying in defence of the most persistent and shameless liar we have ever had as PM...”

There was a lot of whataboutery on this thread.

But isn’t Alastair Campbell to pontificate living in the past? Isnt he trying to recapture a time when he had influence.

Why quote the opinions of a man of the past unless you have some hankering for it yourself. Nostalgia for the days of power.

It’s going to take something other than Alastair Campbell to bring in a Labour Government. Where are today’s people? Keeping their heads down.?

PippaZ

But we have just discovered many don't offer views. You have come on here, as does Peasblossom, just to talk personality and how people have been in the past.

I don't see you starting a conversation about the new tax rules agreed by the G7 - which is about now and our future. It's all about the personality not about the policy GrannyGravy13 and that is soul-destroying and does make it look as if some do not give a toss about what is happening to others or our country in general.

I am not going to be drawn into he said/she did arguments of long ago so unless you are talking about the text of the OP I will leave you to wallow together in the past.

Wrong again (it’s becoming a habit)

I posted about the G7 agreeing new corporation tax for tech companies on this very thread yesterday.

Like I said to MaizieD please continue to post my thoughts as you obviously know them (not)

You cannot keep dismissing yesterday's people/MP’s when they are constantly being rolled out on mainstream TV news programs, we were subjected to Tony Blair’s views on Andrew Marr only this morning.

Yes the squeaky clean Campbell who NEVER once advised his leader to Lie to the British public who by the way has never apologised for the deaths he sent young people to

But we have just discovered many don't offer views. You have come on here, as does Peasblossom, just to talk personality and how people have been in the past.

I don't see you starting a conversation about the new tax rules agreed by the G7 - which is about now and our future. It's all about the personality not about the policy GrannyGravy13 and that is soul-destroying and does make it look as if some do not give a toss about what is happening to others or our country in general.

I am not going to be drawn into he said/she did arguments of long ago so unless you are talking about the text of the OP I will leave you to wallow together in the past.

I would have hoped that the left leaning politicians and would be influencers would have learned the lessons of past elections?

Talking down to or being dismissive of the electorate is not the correct way to garner votes or support.

By AC alleging that a section of the electorate don’t give a toss he is ignoring any views and or opinions they may have.

But it isn't Peasblossom. It either is credible or isn't credible in its own right, but to understand that you need to at least think about it and probably discuss it.

No, I don't put much faith in those who have lied to us but I do try to look at each utterance with an open mind. We are human. Liars do not lie all the time and generally truthful people do not always tell the truth so we need to judge each speech or writing at the moment.

Anyway, you are determined to live in the past and I am determined not to so I will continue with today, not yesterday. It doesn't mean that I haven't taken what I have learned about human beings in general with me as I go but I will not dwell there.

Or do you think he’s really changed and we should all listen to what he has to say now, because this time it will be the truth?

He does truth no service by pretending to be on its side.

If it was somebody different saying these things it might bear some credibility.

You don’t put any faith in a man who is known to be a liar, neither do I.

It’s not a rant. I don’t trust liars. It’s that simple.

No one is saying don't remember it Peasblossom - just don't remain in it.

This is what you seem to be doing so that all you can talk about is something that happened nearly 20 years ago, not what is happening now. Do you think your little rant has changed the past one iota? If not it's a waste of energy. I wish it hadn't happened too, just as I wish things had been different under other PMs.

It was wrong but it is time to acknowledge that and move on and not dwell. The only person you harm or even change by doing that is yourself.

Ah, but those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

I remember the lies that were told to engage us in war, I remember demonstrating “Not in my name” and I remember the contempt shown by Campbell and the then Government for our concern and for the lives of others.

In my opinion he has no place to talk of others “not giving a toss” as if he does. Why is he so concerned now, when he didn’t give a toss then?

He totally lacks credibility and does any discussion of the issues of the pandemic a disservice. Who would want to be allied with the likes of Campbell?

Not while you are still willing to discuss Whatdayisit . My biggest worry about the change to a nation of personality praisers and blamers is that you lose any sense of agency. Those people have gone but you have given up trying to make the current people be the best we can have in the common interest.

The most difficult thing to get hold of when we feel assaulted in some way is that we cannot change the other person; we can only change how we view them. That means we take back the ability to go forward in life not live in the past.

Oh ok. Thankyou for that PippaZ yes i am choosing to put the responsibility of the failings of The Labour Party on those who put themselves forward, and, got paid a lot of money,to do the job. NGT i obviously can be labelled.

Whatdayisit

PippaZ

That still doesn't mean that the OP was not the thing we were asked to discuss. Discussing personalities is exactly what put people in the category he calls a Not Giving a Tossers.

If you think this is not the case discuss what he says in the article, not his or anyone else's personality.

PippaZ my point is if I am being categorised by him as a not giving a tosser i lay the blame for that at his and sidekick Bliars feet.
I aren't discussing personalities i have pointed out actions that he and sidekick did that made me a not giving a tosser. Because in 2019 they and many Labour MPs undermined the leader at every opportunity. They all handed the landslide victory to Boris and were glad just as much as the right wing press so it utterly sticks in my throat i think he himself through his actions is also in the not giving a tosser.
On 13th December 2019 i gave up hope of this country ever being right again. The light has gone out on the Labour Party and mostly because of his and Blairs actions.

It seems to be another cultural change that the blame is laid on others rather than taking responsibility but then his description of NGaTs is that they don't take responsibility, isn't it? Often the blame is laid at one or another politicians door while the citizen concerned does nothing, just transfers his or her accountability to someone else.

Blaming others is a very defensive move - cowardly? - in some circumstances certainly. In doing this you are passing any power you have to someone else - just what today's politicians hope for. Then they will lie and let you down and you will blame some other human beings.

Where is your self-esteem; no one made you blame someone else. You have put yourself in this unhealthy place and yet, and yet, you are prepared to come and complain about those you have passed your power to on a grandparents forum! Maybe you are beyond help. I have no idea but I do not accept the passing of your responsibility as something forced on you. You chose it; you hold the responsibility for what happens because of it.

PippaZ

That still doesn't mean that the OP was not the thing we were asked to discuss. Discussing personalities is exactly what put people in the category he calls a Not Giving a Tossers.

If you think this is not the case discuss what he says in the article, not his or anyone else's personality.

PippaZ my point is if I am being categorised by him as a not giving a tosser i lay the blame for that at his and sidekick Bliars feet.
I aren't discussing personalities i have pointed out actions that he and sidekick did that made me a not giving a tosser. Because in 2019 they and many Labour MPs undermined the leader at every opportunity. They all handed the landslide victory to Boris and were glad just as much as the right wing press so it utterly sticks in my throat i think he himself through his actions is also in the not giving a tosser.
On 13th December 2019 i gave up hope of this country ever being right again. The light has gone out on the Labour Party and mostly because of his and Blairs actions.

That still doesn't mean that the OP was not the thing we were asked to discuss. Discussing personalities is exactly what put people in the category he calls a Not Giving a Tossers.

If you think this is not the case discuss what he says in the article, not his or anyone else's personality.