Who gives a t*ss?

growstuff Labour was 56 seats behind the Tories in 2017 and now they need 100, are you suggesting voters in 44 seats held their noses?
More people under 35 registered to vote as well
www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/08/world/europe/british-general-election-results-analysis.html

BTW I didn't need AC to tell me that there is a significant number of people who really don't give a t*ss. I've been with canvassers before elections and have been quite horrified at some of the stuff people have come out with. I dread to think what they will only say behind closed doors.

The Conservatives also know that the people who are most likely to vote are those over 60, who tend to be more socially conservative. Apparently, only 14% of those over 60s in England who voted, voted against the Conservatives (can't remember where I read that, so can't check it).

Dinahmo

Maizie interesting reading. The most shocking thing for me was the high percentage of those who support capital punishment.

The UK (England mainly) is a very conservative country (with a small "c"). That's why Johnson & Co have focussed on a culture war.

trisher Do some maths! Labour needs to win at least 100 seats from the Tories, if it's going to win an election. They're not just seats like the so-called red wall, but more so-called "middle-class" seats in the Midlands, South and South East, where Corbyn-like policies have little appeal.

BTW I know people who voted Labour in 2017 while holding their noses because they were hoping that Brexit would be overturned and Labour offered the best hope because they were going on about "Brexit Light".

I just thought an outsider view would help. Personally I wouldn't vote for either party, and never have. One is as bad as the other.

Peasblossom

People didn’t like what they heard and saw and they didn’t want it for their Government.

They either voted for what they did want or they didn’t vote at all. The former will probably never change.

You don’t seem to be able to grasp why you lost those who had nothing to vote for.

Have fun with winning arguments with a range of techniques.
It’s all that will be won?

But acually the evidence is that people did want it in 2017 when the LP could have formed a government but for the shenanigans with the DUP. And that therefore the biggest cause of the collapse in 2019 was the Red Wall belief in Brexit. I have yet to see anyone explain to me how that 2017 vote came about with Corbyn as leader if he was so hated? It was only after the media assassination that people started to question his leadership.
How is this idea that somehow the LP was wrong then and is now putting itself right correct?
I fully accept that the LP misunderstood the strength of the Red Wall belief in Brexit, I don't understand how becoming more like the Tories is going to help rebuild those communities when the economic downfall hits.

I think it’s interesting that the survey writers point out that the division between left and right is simplistic and does not take on board the authoritarian v libertarian axis. This is so often overlooked in discussions, and is fundamental to an understanding of where people sit - in fact the concept is meaningless without it.

I remember that after my first post on here I was called right wing because I questioned the sense of allowing young teenagers to take puberty blockers and move towards gender transitioning. I was quite taken aback by this, but then realised that the observation (accusation?) was based on a misunderstanding of what ‘right’ and ‘left’ wing actually means

Maizie interesting reading. The most shocking thing for me was the high percentage of those who support capital punishment.

People claiming that people didn't vote Labour because they didn't like Labour policies should have a look at this:

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/08/14/left-wing-vs-right-wing-its-complicated

MOnica I think you are wrong that the Labour Party is still the same as it was with Corbyn as leader. If it were the same, so many Corbyn supporters wouldn't be complaining now.

I actually think Dominic Cummings got something right about the sorry state of affairs where the choice was between Johnson and Corbyn.

MOnica Your claim that politics is based on opinions and people differing on the best way forward is too rational. Politics is based on entrenched prejudice.

People didn’t like what they heard and saw and they didn’t want it for their Government.

They either voted for what they did want or they didn’t vote at all. The former will probably never change.

You don’t seem to be able to grasp why you lost those who had nothing to vote for.

Have fun with winning arguments with a range of techniques.
It’s all that will be won?

I advise you to do more research M0nica until Corbyn became leader there was no process for dealing with anti-Semitism- he introduced one. His association with terrorists are you referring to the IRA or Hammas ? Both of which have political wings and Sinn Fein has elected MPs. Are you saying it's wrong to associate with such people? If so we shouldn't be speaking to the Israeli government which was formed from a terrorist organisation .You see falling for the media hype is so evident.
And anyway aren't we supposed to vote for policies and not personalities?
Blaming the LP because you didn't believe in socialist policies is absolutely what I mean "It wasn't our fault a bad man did it and ran away!"

What the electorate saw was a party taken over by people whose views they did not share.

An idealistic but impractical manifesto.

A weak leader who was afraid to make a stand on anything for fear being ousted or losing votes.

A Party with such scorn for any of its supporters that did not follow its rigid line that it alienated and disenfranchised them.

Nothing has changed. And there’s a limit to the number of times Labour can remake itself.

It was the Labour Party that put the Torys into power and the Labour Party that will keep them there. They are the ones that don’t give a toss.

Trisher You are being naive if you think it was only media hype that made people vote against Corbyn. We didn't like a man who consorted with terrorists, talked the talk, but never walked the walk on anti-semitism, couldn't make his mind up on Brexit and, as an MP, had a history of consistently voting against his party, but came down heavily on anyone who dared to defy him. People were also worried that the Momentum tail was wagging the Labour dog.

Politics is based on people's opinions and most people just did not believe the manifesto. They could not accept that it was possible to do all that you promised in the way you promised it. Yes, I appreciate that you believe that it was viable, but many people didn't. At the end of the day, if a party wants to win an election it needs to present itself to voters in away that attracts them and shed any baggage that previously made it unelectable.

Politics is based on people differing on the best way forward, and the facts are, that whatever you think, feel or believe, it is what the electorate thing, feel and believe that matters. But, a party, any party, that just goes round saying 'we wuzz robbed' and whinging, is going nowhere fast.

If the Labour Party wants to win again it has got to find out what will make it winnable and I see no sign of that happening at present.

Looking at these posts I can't help but think that AC is wrong at least as far as GN is concerned. It's not so much "don't give a toss" as "We couldn't help it". Well the reason we have such an incompetent, corrupt, self serving government is because you fell for the media hype about Corbyn. It's no use blaming the Labour Party which offered a viable and socially aware alternative. If you believed the hype you are responsible. And you don't even have the excuse of the red wall voters, they at least voted for the Brexit they believed in.

I get the feeling that the Labour Party is in such a divided state that it’s beyond Starmer now to change things.His moment may well have come and gone when he failed to demote Raynor.
There aren’t enough moderates in the shadow cabinet.

I remember in the 1950’s and 60’s parents and grandparents etc moaning that this lot couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery or words to that effect.It’s a time honoured way to say that the government of the day is not the one you wanted or voted for. It’s how our democracy works, you know this and will get your chance at the next GE. Other people will then moan about the useless lot that are in power.

Not me MaizieD I voted for my constituency MP.

I'm not actually specifically referring to the Labour Party, MOnica. I am looking at the possibility of more competence to run the UK being in the parties of opposition than there is in the current cabinet.

I think your analysis of voting at the last GE is wrong. Despite the fact that you feel you need to tell me that we are not a 'presidential' country, it is pretty clear that people voted 'for Boris' and 'against Corbyn'.

Shutting your eyes to the reality, will not help Maizie.

I have no doubts that there are many good and honest people in the Labour Party, but you have to address the realities of what happened. A lot of those who voted Conservative, not for Boris, we are not a presidential country, like the USA. Voted Conservative as 'the anything but Labour' alternative.

Until the Labour Party takes this on board and does something about, every member of that party could be a saint, complete with halo and possibly wings, and all devoting their lives to helping the poor, many people would still not vote for the party as it as it is now.

The labour party is failing the country and failing democracy by not facing up to the facts and finding what it needs to do to be electable again.

M0nica

But GillT57 the problem is that there isn't a viable alternative.

I'm amazed that you can contemplate the incompetence, corruption and marginalisation of Parliament that characterises this government and declare that there is no viable alternative.

What has this government done that has been even remotely successful, apart from striking lucky with the vaccinations?

I'm pretty sure that most of the MPs from the opposition side of the House could make a decent fist of running the country and be a great deal more trustworthy.

You are really very insulting to/about decent men and women sometimes. MOnica

My stepdad was very left wing politics was talked constantly at home he died in '97 . Even in the 1980s he always said that Europe would divide and finish the Tories.
Here we are and in reality i think it has finished Labour.
BoJo like a scene from Animal Farm took away the Tory Whip from anyone in the Tories who opposed him Ken Clarke Rory Stewert et al - and that was that.
The public voted for BoJo to see an end to the constant Brexit debate.
Good job stepdad was cremated otherwise he would be spinning.

As a bit of sport as a child i would occasionally light the touch paper and randomly say " i think 'Mrs.Thatcher is a nice lady.' He would explode!