Birthing People - inclusive or offensive?

trisher

Rosie51 I am actually concerned for all those taking part. I suppose with your restricted views on how a male body contrasts with a female one you won't want to worry about women who present with what are regarded as male characteristics, but only because of the narrow view of women taken by the authorities. I can't think of any other situation where the size of your breasts and clitoris would need to be examined and I'm amazed that anyone would regard this as just "accepting certain restrictions". No one I suppose is examining any men's penises?
The whole issue of regulating women's sports and the admission of transwomen needs looking at and some fair solution found which stops such intrusive examinations and develops as level a playing field as possible.
I suppose it is much easier to say "Ban transwomen" and leave the rest of a complicated problem to continue abusing and discriminating against women.

Oh for goodness sake trisher nobody is saying ban transwomen, just let them compete in their sex based class. While you keep dragging people with DSDs into it you do transwomen and them no favours. I've finally ploughed through that blog link you gave.. well anyone who continuously uses sex and gender interchangeably obviously lacks scientific discrimination. May I suggest you listen to The Moral Maze from last night and especially the witness of Debbie Hayton a transwoman in favour of fairness? I'm more than happy to share her narrow views on the two sexes and the difference between male and female bodies. There is absolutely no need for the invasive physical tests you refer to, and I absolutely would not support those methods, science can determine sex by scientific analysis. Are these methods used nowadays, I can't believe they are, please link to an official source to verify this. This is why the term intersex is offensive and inaccurate. There are two sexes, every single human on this earth past, present and future falls into one or the other. A woman who outwardly has ambiguous external sex characteristics can easily be assigned to her correct sex by scientific analysis.
Out of interest and for balance can you please list all the times a transman has been able to take a competitive sport place from a natal male? It must happen because you don't believe the adult male body has any great advantage physically over the female born body.

The long running issue of people with DSD, distressing though it is, is deflecting from the issue of should transwomen (men) compete along side biological women. Conditions such as DSD are complex and rare and are not the same as being transgender.

The publicity around Laurel Hubbard has exposed what happens when reality meets ideology. We are told that now Hubbard is a woman, she will have no advantages over the other women. But Hubbard is one of those instances where we see that there are times when sex really matters. Its interesting that athletes with DSD are subject to tests to prove their sex but if a man declares himself to be a woman, we take his word for it.

Maybe we should re-examine why male and female sports were separated in the first place.

I absolutely don't support the degrading treatment that was detailed in that link trisher.
Biological sex can be ascertained without doing that, and no surgery is going to alter the biological sex.

Some males choose to take hormone drugs and that alters some of their physical characteristics.
They are not females.

The case of females with DSDs is completely different from that of males who claim to be women.

Rosie51 I am actually concerned for all those taking part. I suppose with your restricted views on how a male body contrasts with a female one you won't want to worry about women who present with what are regarded as male characteristics, but only because of the narrow view of women taken by the authorities. I can't think of any other situation where the size of your breasts and clitoris would need to be examined and I'm amazed that anyone would regard this as just "accepting certain restrictions". No one I suppose is examining any men's penises?
The whole issue of regulating women's sports and the admission of transwomen needs looking at and some fair solution found which stops such intrusive examinations and develops as level a playing field as possible.
I suppose it is much easier to say "Ban transwomen" and leave the rest of a complicated problem to continue abusing and discriminating against women.

asked to use medical treatment they don't need except for the purpose of taking part in sport so that would be so they're competing on a fair basis then? Nobody is compelled to take part in sports, if you choose to do them you accept certain restrictions. Funny how concern for the female athlete ousted by a born male who enjoys every privilege is completely absent.

So do you think it is reasonable that someone who has been identified as female all of their lives should then because of their appearance be subjected to intrusive medical examinations and asked to use medical treatment they don't need except for the purpose of taking part in sport? Or suddenly be told they are not the sex they have always identified as? I was abolutely shocked by the physical examination involved, which includes intimacies I won't post on GN because I know they would upset some people but are deatailed in a link I posted earlier. I wondered why all sports women didn't take a stand and object to them. They seem to me to be the equivalent of sexual abuse but legitimised.
I think if we are looking at transwomen being admitted then the whole organisation and supervision needs to be revised.

People with DSDs are always female or male, although some physical characteristics may be different from the usual

Exactly! This is the drum I've been beating.

Interesting to note that in the Laurel Hubbard case we have all the privileges wrapped up in one....white privilege, rich privilege and male privilege that has taken the place of a poorer, woman of colour. Something to celebrate eh?

People with DSDs are always female or male, although some physical characteristics may be different from the usual.
A person's sex can be verified with a blood test.
There is no need for verification if the person is a mature male - that person is not female.

The answer to this is not simply to abandon tests and to allow any man who wishes, to be in women's sport.
You really think it's fairer to sportswomen to do that?

I don't think I am "conflating" intersex and transgender people I am pointing out that women's sport regulation has been and continues to be a problem. That this regulation has led to real distress for women who have been subjected to all sorts of indignities. And that what is regarded as the'norm' in terms of female physical development isn't always the sort of form some female athletes have. The article I put a link to thinks this is closely involved with racism. I have no idea if this is true but I found the statement about testing women and the physical indignities involved very concerning.

To conflate transgender and intersex people is disingenuous.

trisher and that's the very problem, an article uses gender when they mean sex. It suits some agendas to conflate the two. For a very few people their sex will have been "misread" at birth. There are scientific procedures that can accurately decide which of the two sexes any person should be. In the past ambiguous genitalia was often assigned female, and it is hard for those who have been wrongly assigned, but one unfairness does not justify unfairness to many others. But all that aside, those individuals' inclusion or non inclusion in sport is irrelevant to transwomen being permitted to partake in female sports. Transwomen and people with DSDs are not even remotely the same class. Transwomen have changed their gender from men to women, they have not magically changed their sex from male to female.

Rosie51

trisher that woman will not have failed a gender test, of which aren't we informed there are over 100, she will have failed a sex test, which we know there are only two. People with DSDs, most hate the term intersex and find it insulting, can still be reliably allocated to one of the two sexes. There is no third sex.

Rosie51 in the article the test is defined as a gender test. As the woman was already designated as female at birth I don't think her sex could be changed could it? I believe that's what many on here have asserted.
The incidence of women with the health condition described s intersex is very high in ompetetive sport . Perhaps they need to have their own designated events as well???? You wonder where it will stop.

In football a trans man or woman has to pass certain tests and have a doctor’s endorsement before they are permitted to play. Sounds good? In actuality it may not be. If a man does not transition until he is well passed puberty then he will have the proportions of a man. For example our women’s football team were playing another women’s team when our players came to me complaining the other team’s goal keeper was a man. I poo pooed it until this GK came to ask me for something and absolutely towered above me and had giant hands. Our players were terrified. I complained to the FA but she passed the FA’s transition rules so was a permitted player.
In this case it gave an unfair advantage, but that isn’t always so.

Some LGBTQ+ have set up their own teams but mostly on a friendly basis so if you want to play at a serious level you need to join a more professional male or female team. This is where you have the problem with trans people. Having said that if a trans woman turned up, wanted to play and had good football skills ( albeit learnt with a Premier League Academy) why wouldn’t you sign them? Trans do have to tell you they are trans which no one else has to.

We want to be inclusive but is it fair in this instance?

trisher that woman will not have failed a gender test, of which aren't we informed there are over 100, she will have failed a sex test, which we know there are only two. People with DSDs, most hate the term intersex and find it insulting, can still be reliably allocated to one of the two sexes. There is no third sex.

Talking about transwomen in sport now on Woman's Hour

The Moral Maze on Radio 4 this evening is a discussion about transwomen in sport.
Thought that some may be interested

It's an interesting if rather simplistic article. Women in sport are already experiencing high levels of examination and judgement about what they are permitted or not permitted to be. This has resulted in some women being banned from taking part unless they subject themselves to unnecessary medical intervention. You may think it's a simple matter of ban the transwoman, but a significant number of women involved in high-level sport are intersex. Will you ban them as well? One woman has already attempted suicide because she was stripped of a medal when she failed a gender test. It may seem simple but it really isn't.

Yes SueDonim the article in the Guardian shows clarity and logic. My hormones are fast waning, but I’m no less a woman because of that fact and I always will be. The same with testosterone. We are not defined by our hormones. As George Orwell said in 1984 - they want us to believe 2+2 = 5.

SueDonim thanks for that link. What a balanced reasonable article, and not just because she agrees with me to have an open class and a female sex-based class.

The Guardian has an article today about the transwomen issue in sport.

www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2021/jun/22/by-conflating-gender-and-sex-we-undermine-sporting-competition?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Men of course don't get tested.

Well of course they do get tested for drug use, but their testosterone levels can vary from 7.7-29.4 nmol/L in healthy males. If they transition to women they are allowed a level (10 nmol/L) twice the maximum allowed for their female competitors (5nmol/L). So they allow transwomen athletes to have a testosterone level compatible with a healthy male.

The second paragraph of your link illustrates exactly why sports need to be sex segregated not gender segregated. It is hard on women with medical conditions that elevate their levels above the permitted range, and more research is needed to assess their situation, but their competitors need to have a fair chance too. Participation in elite sport is not a right, ask the female weightlifter who lost her place to Laurel Hubbard, after years of hard work and training.

From what I've read, including in your link, females, even with high testosterone, do not have anywhere near the levels that transwomen have as their lowest level.

Your link makes clear that testosterone is not the whole story.

It should be possible to enable females to compete while excluding males, if a little more sensible thought is given to it.

The answer is not just to let in men who say they are women - because you can be sure that that will be the next demand.
It will be claimed that athletes should not be required to take testosterone-lowering treatment in order to compete.

FarNorth they test for testosterone levels, but it is incredibly complicated and levels vary at different times. Some women have conditions which cause their levels to be unnaturally high, some of them lower their level using medication. www.ese-hormones.org/media/1882/femaleathletes_hirschberg_pr_final.pdf
Men of course don't get tested.

Don't high level athletes have to have blood tests to check for drug use?
Couldn't their sex be determined from those also?