Birthing People - inclusive or offensive?

Doodledog that quote (as you well know) refers to everyday life when you are unlikely to know if the person standing next to you is a transwoman or just someone who happens to look a bit masculine. It actually demeans you to try to us it as an example of my views on transwomen competing in high levels of sport where there are so many problems and where women have faced so many difficulties to do with their appearance for many years. It may seem simple to some-""ban the transwoman" but it will become so much more complicated as more people are involved. Completely seperate. events are not in my opinion something to be desired -they smack too much of apartheid.
This is a very interesting blog which really makes you think
blogs.lse.ac.uk/gender/2020/12/07/straddling-the-line-between-gender-and-sex-how-racism-misogyny-and-transphobia-intertwine-to-define-notions-of-womanhood-in-the-world-of-elite-sports/

The language we use creates the reality we live within. If the use of gender neutral language, gender inclusive language is considered the way forward then not only the words women mothers female will be erased, but grandmothers and girls. And then of course men, boys, fathers grandfathers must follow. And any word with a male default bias - Humans humanity. So why would there be any need to “transition” trans into what ? we would all be mere It’s or things or perhaps a new word as yet not in use. There would be No differentiation whatsoever. Except science shows us that each person has either XY or XX chromosomes in everyone of the trillions of cells in our bodies and this is an immutable fact. And no amount of ‘feeling like’ or ‘choosing to identify as’ something other can alter this basic premise. So which will triumph language or science

That posted too soon, but is a direct quote from one of your earlier posts on this thread.

trisher

*Doodledog*if you can quote where on this thread I have provided criteria saying all men would need to do would be to wear a skirt and 'present as a woman In every day life I am qute prepared to accept people who present as female as women, however the issue of sport isn't and has never been simple.
I believe there are sports people who would like to see categories introduced which are not solely dependent upon sex. I'm not sure if that would work or even how.
My argument is by the way that I cannot see any way of properly regulating this issue wihout resorting to the intrusive methods used in the past. It would be nice to think it will just be one transwoman involved but I suspect there will be many more.

^You can believe what you like. It doesn't matter if sex is fixed because I am unlikely at any point to want to verify the sex you are matches what you claim to be. I simply accept it.
I do so by looking at your appearance and dress-so your gender. Then again I may be misled. If you look like a woman, claim you are a woman and pass as a woman I am unlikely to insist you strip off so I can check. If you look like a man ditto. The anatomical details are irrelevant.
It's tme women stopped looking at this as a one sided issue. Men want to become women and women want to be men. It's happening, Accept it.^

And I think many more people will be accused of being a trans women.

Doodledogif you can quote where on this thread I have provided criteria saying all men would need to do would be to wear a skirt and 'present as a woman In every day life I am qute prepared to accept people who present as female as women, however the issue of sport isn't and has never been simple.
I believe there are sports people who would like to see categories introduced which are not solely dependent upon sex. I'm not sure if that would work or even how.
My argument is by the way that I cannot see any way of properly regulating this issue wihout resorting to the intrusive methods used in the past. It would be nice to think it will just be one transwoman involved but I suspect there will be many more.

The women you have mentioned Trisha seem to have some sort of genetic anomaly which means their sex is not easy to determine. I don't have the answer for that. Those cases are difficult to deal with, but the athletes such as Laurel Hubbard and the other potential transwoman entrants are open about their sex. It is these individuals that cause the issue

Laurel Hubbard is a controversial entrant. We don't need to know what is in Laurel's underwear, it is clear that her physique has all the benefits of an adult male and years of competing along side other men. Biological women have and will continue to loose out if men are allowed to enter women's competitions. Hardly sporting is it. It could be the beginning of the end of women's sport.

trisher why do you believe that every man who claims to be a woman, is actually a woman?
Why do you see no possible drawbacks to this idea?

"Did a Male Rapist Who Identifies as Female Transfer to a Women’s Jail and Assault Female Inmates?
Transgender prisoner Karen White (formerly Stephen Wood) of West Yorkshire, England, who confessed to committing multiple rapes as a man, sexually assaulted female inmates after being transferred to a women's jail."

www.snopes.com/fact-check/male-rapist-transfer-womens-jail/

Because as things become less clearly defined or if accusations were made about women- as has happened in the past some sort of examination might well return.
But why would it matter enough to examine people, unless there were an inherent advantage for a male-born person to compete against women? How does it work now? Is there any sort of test to determine the sex of athletes? By your criteria all men would need to do would be to wear a skirt and 'present as a woman' (whatever that means). Is that enough?

Your argument seems to be that either women have a choice - they either compete against males (and give up on a chance of success), or have intrusive examinations? And people wonder why feminists are so worked up about trans rights?

Surely a more proportionate response would be to protect female athletes from the 'developing countries' - presumably those in first world countries would not be subject to extreme surgical procedures, and this is not sanctioned by any international athletics organisations? Appalling though that practice is, it is not the norm to make policy for the rest of the world based on actions that happen under abusive regimes.

If a man wants to change gender, and live 'as a woman', that is up to him IMO, and whatever you say I am not phobic about it. If a man says he is a woman and expects to win awards and prizes (and money) because he has a male body but is competing against people with female bodies, that is a different matter.

It would be nice to see a girl in a co-ed school called Head of School!

Just to add to the debate. St Pauls’s Independent School in London now no longer has a Head Girl, she is how known as Head of School. Where are with heading with all this renaming? It gets worse on a daily basis.

petunia

Trisher-why would women be subjected to dreadful medical procedures because a transwoman wishes to compete against them?

Because as things become less clearly defined or if accusations were made about women- as has happened in the past some sort of examination might well return. This might result in some women, being forced to undergo surgery. In 2013 four elite female athletes from developing countries were subjected to partial clitoridectomies (a form of female genital mutilation) and gonadectomies (sterilization) after testosterone testing revealed their previously unknown intersex conditions.
If transwomen are to have seperate provision it will be necessary to know theiir full history but there may be people who can't provide that.

It is not at all difficult in the cases of people known to be male who have chosen to be transwomen.
No tests would be required.

I think things will become much more difficult, as hormone treatment of young people becomes more common, along with birth certificates being altered to show the incorrect sex.

"Sex assigned at birth" was a term originally used for people with variations in sexual development, as their sex may not have been clear from observation at birth.
I believe that Caster Semenya does have such a condition.

Trisher-why would women be subjected to dreadful medical procedures because a transwoman wishes to compete against them?

JaneJudge

Would (Gavin) Hubbard qualified for the men's weight lifting team?

I don't know, but I'll hazard a guess at no. It's obviously pure coincidence that male sportsmen transition as their male prowess declines. Or at least that seems to apply to the ones that have made the news. Still finding it hard to find evidence of transmen taking male places in the sporting arena ?

The positon and testing of women to compete in sports has a horrific and abusive history. Perhaps that's why women are keeping quiet about things. It would be wonderful if there was a simple solution to this very complicated problem, unfortunately there isn't. Attempts to regulate things in the past resulted in some women being subjected to dreadful medical procedures.
It isn't a simple matter for example In fact, high-performing female athletes show a rate of Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome much higher than the general population—which shows 1 in 20,000–50,000, compared with elite athletes’ 1 in 429.
It's fine to question the involvement of transwomen. It's not easy to find a solution that wouldn't also raise the possibility of women being once again subjected to abusive medical treatment.
If you are interested in the real problems en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports

Laurel Hubbard is one of several trans athletes who will be/hoping to be competing in the Olympics this year.

For every transwoman competing, there is a woman who has lost out. For the sake of being progressive and inclusive so many women have their Olympic dreams smashed. Maybe all these women athletes should refuse to compete under this regime.

Rosie51

trisher you seek to impose "birthing people" on those that object to it, but are against others being subject to "pregnant female" when they object. Although the document in question is in the USA there are enough instances of this removing of female terms in this country.

You haven't addressed FarNorth's point about sex and gender. I believe the science that sex is fixed and immutable, gender is a social construct and therefore subject to change or variation. What do you think? Do you believe that by declaring yourself to be a man or woman you actually change your sex, or just the gender stereotype you wish to align with. Reinforcing gender stereotypes is such a massive retrograde step.

I'm not imposing birthing people on anyone simply pointing out that it is an inclusive term which covers all possibilities andthere fore provision for everyone. You argue that other terms can be used and of course they can but with all of them there is a danger that some people will be missed out. You may be called whatever you wish.

You can believe what you like. It doesn't matter if sex is fixed because I am unlikely at any point to want to verify the sex you are matches what you claim to be. I simply accept it.
I do so by looking at your appearance and dress-so your gender. Then again I may be misled. If you look like a woman, claim you are a woman and pass as a woman I am unlikely to insist you strip off so I can check. If you look like a man ditto. The anatomical details are irrelevant.
It's tme women stopped looking at this as a one sided issue. Men want to become women and women want to be men. It's happening, Accept it.

Would (Gavin) Hubbard qualified for the men's weight lifting team?

With regards to Laurel Hubbard, the testosterone level they are allowed is still way above the level permitted for any female athlete, leaving aside the other physical advantages that remain from having been male for so long: longer limbs, stronger bones, more muscle mass etc It's interesting that there aren't any transmen competing in the male class of any of the disciplines at the olympics, I wonder why?

Make the men's category an open one and Laurel could compete in that class, leaving the women's category for female born athletes.

Whereas Caster Semenya was assigned female at birth but has restrictions placed on competition because of her levels of testosterone

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

Maddy - look up Dr Rachel McKinnon, aka Veronica Ivy.

Hi Fanny, thanks. I think it’s unfair really too. I realise it’s a difficult question, but with weight lifting, muscle mass is so important. I feel sorry for the other female athletes who are competing in that event.

maddyone

I’m just dropping in here, read the early part of the thread, but not all the way through, so apologies if this has been raised before. Did anyone see the trans woman on SkyNews last night? She’s been allowed, the first person ever I believe, to compete in the female weight lifting at the Olympics. Not sure I agree with this. She didn’t trans till she was 35 so had the benefit of all the testosterone for all that time to build much bigger muscle mass. It seems to me she has an unfair advantage. Difficult though. What do you think?

Maddy - hello, yes I mentioned the Olympics yesterday morning.
I think that it is wrong

trisher you seek to impose "birthing people" on those that object to it, but are against others being subject to "pregnant female" when they object. Although the document in question is in the USA there are enough instances of this removing of female terms in this country.

You haven't addressed FarNorth's point about sex and gender. I believe the science that sex is fixed and immutable, gender is a social construct and therefore subject to change or variation. What do you think? Do you believe that by declaring yourself to be a man or woman you actually change your sex, or just the gender stereotype you wish to align with. Reinforcing gender stereotypes is such a massive retrograde step.