Birthing People - inclusive or offensive?

FarNorth I have no idea. I just know what the methods used just now are and it's testosterone they test for.
Any male healthy enough to compete will still have a testosterone level above that of any female.
That's actually wrong From Wiki
Sex verification is not conducted on athletes competing in the male category, and little data are available on their chromosomes or hormone profiles. However, a post-competition study of 693 elite athletes by Healy et al., published in 2014, found significant differences along many variables. ^^The authors found that:16.5% of men had low testosterone levels, whereas 13.7% of women had high levels with complete overlap between the sexes.
Using these data, Scientific American estimated that "almost 2 percent" of male competitors had testosterone levels in the typical female range.[37] The study authors also stated that average lean body mass differences might account for performance differences between sexes.

Doodledog I see no reason why campaigning for transrights can't exist alongside campaigning for women's rights. It's not a matter of one or the other.

trisher why is sex not checked by a blood test, if there is thought to be a need to check?

I'm not suggesting that it should slip into the background, just pointing out that if there were a genuinely level playing field (no pun intended!) there would be no need to check to ensure that men were not using the advantage that having a male body conveys, whatever gender preferences are involved.

Would they have to endure them if not for men passing themselves off as women? If transwomen were actually women there would be no need for intrusive examinations
Well there may be "no need" but they have been going on for a long time. They are not only intrusive they are based on something called "the norm"for women and include illustrations of what the norm looks like. These are not trans women, they are people who have been called women from birth, who until someone points out their "unfemale" characteristics are simply women who are good at sport. They are then given a testosterone test and if it is too high physically examined. The really funny thing is there is no scientific basis to the testosterone test. No one has proved that natural testosterone influences development or performance in the same way artificial testosterone does. And some of the women's bodies don't use it anyway. Nothing to do with transwomen.
But it illustrates how women in sport have been mistreated and are still mistreated. The issue of transwomen may be important but it shouldn't be allowed to let this just slip into the background.

Fortunately Trisher, you don't get to decide what I “rage” about. Because I'm not raging about invasive tests doesn't mean that I support the practice. However biological males openly entering women's sport is something I do feel strongly about. It seems so very unfair. It could even be seen as cheating in plain sight.

trisher

If you want to rage about something why not rage about the intrusive gynaecological examinations women athletes have to endure?

Would they have to endure them if not for men passing themselves off as women? If transwomen were actually women there would be no need for intrusive examinations.

This whole situation is really doing far more harm than good. I know that my friends and social contacts are not a representative sample of the world at large, but all the same, I guess that 90% of people would now happily accept men transitioning to women and living 'as women' (whatever that means). It is when women see their hard-won rights being eroded, their sex reduced to gender, their single sex spaces being removed, their places of safely being compromised etc that they get annoyed.

Women who were previously allies of transwomen are turning away from what they see as an encroaching threat, and this is entrenched by the 'take no prisoners/with us or against us'/no debate allowed' approach taken by many TRAs.

Terms like 'birthing people' are very probably seen by the vast majority of people as idiotic. As can be seen on a different thread, there are people who still think that you can't ask for black coffee, or describe a sheep or a beanbag as black without being racist. Shouldn't this be a cautionary tale for those hoping to impose a vocabulary onto others? All people hear is white noise and what they feel is resentment at those who set themselves up as 'more enlightened' telling them what to do.

trisher

I'm actually thinking about it Rosie51 and trying to measure all the things I have learned about women's sport and the problems involved. I can't see how this would help with the problem of women, who think they are women and so presumably would want to compete in the female class, subsequently having their sex challenged and being subjected to some sort of medical assessment. Unless you are suggesting that all women athletes are tested first. If so will all men be tested and what will happen to those who (as some currently do) have low testosterone levels? Will each of the three classes have a limit of testosterone?

Sex can be determined by blood test, so any female who wants to enter the female class can easily provide evidence to confirm their sex. This would be a one off test, unlike the random tests all sportspeople can be subjected to, to check for drug abuse. For most this evidence could be provided from a blood test taken when they first started training, so long before competitive sport. Anyone entering the open class would not need to provide any evidence of their sex or testosterone levels. They would of course be subject to the normal anti-doping tests. Why would men with low testosterone levels need different treatment to what they have now? Any male healthy enough to compete will still have a testosterone level above that of any female. Why presume all women would want to enter the female class, and not the open class?
My solution of a female class and an open class would definitely solve the question of transwomen being able to engage in competitive sports without controversy.

If you want to rage about something why not rage about the intrusive gynaecological examinations women athletes have to endure?

That's what I was missing Mollygo. Silly me.

My word you need to focus on the linguistic gymnastics to keep up.

petunia if you really want to join the discussion and not just keep making the same point I suggest you read some of the links posted and investigate more fully. There are women who have always thought of themselves as women who compete in women's events . When they win medals their physaical appearance is brought to the attention of the judges and they are subjected to intrusive tests and sometimes are then designated as male or told they are disqualified from women's sport.
Women's sport as a whole has a very unsavoury history of judging who can take part. The transwoman issue is interesting in that it is being done at the same time as women are still being subjected to the same judgements.
Women's sport seems to be stuck somewhere in the past at least as far as treating women goes.

Because he’s a man Petunia.

“the problem of women, who think they are women and so presumably would want to compete in the female class “.

Trisher? Really? Surely a woman who thinks she's a woman and wants to compete in a woman's race is a woman? Maybe I'm missing something.

Batting backwards and forwards about masculine looking women and people with DSD does not deflect from the fact that there appears to be around 8 or 9 transwomen hoping to compete in the Olympics this time (although very recently I read that CeCe Telfer has not been selected). Potentially that's 9 women not selected. That's 9 women pushed down the medal tables. 9 women who have lived and breathed their sport. Having made sacrifices and have trained hard. Some may be at the peak of their profession with their sights set on a medal to finish their career. That's 9 women pushed aside to allow a biological male to take a place.

Hubbard, having had his career as a man, gets a second bite of the cherry while a young woman was not selected. Even if Hubbard doesn't get a medal, a young woman (Kuinini Manumua)has lost the chance of competing in her first Olympic games.

Why is it OK to insist that a transwoman gets to follow their dreams, in Hubbard's case twice, yet a woman is expected to give up on hers?

Sorry two classes.

I'm actually thinking about it Rosie51 and trying to measure all the things I have learned about women's sport and the problems involved. I can't see how this would help with the problem of women, who think they are women and so presumably would want to compete in the female class, subsequently having their sex challenged and being subjected to some sort of medical assessment. Unless you are suggesting that all women athletes are tested first. If so will all men be tested and what will happen to those who (as some currently do) have low testosterone levels? Will each of the three classes have a limit of testosterone?

trisher you didn't respond to my suggestion for two classifications for competitive sport, female sex and open. Do you not agree it would remove all controversy as it would allow transwomen and anyone with a DSD that excluded them from the female class to compete in competitive sport? If you don't agree I'd be very interested in your reasons why not.

Santhi Soundarajan an Indian athlete attempted suicide, Dutee Chand and Caster Semenya were both tested and deemed male.
The science the test is based on is very dodgy anyway. There is no proof that naturally produced testosterone improves performance.

trisher

Mollygo

Could you define ‘lived all her life as a woman’ please. Do you mean a female, born a female? Or a male, identifying as a woman from however young an age, who has continued to grow and develop as a male, despite the self id?

I mean people who have lived as females all their lives Mollygo who are sometimes, taller than most women and/or are flat chested and broadshouldered. They have been subjected to testing which has decided they are male. One athlete was driven to attempt suicide after this happened

Who was that athlete, Trisher? Did she have extremely high testosterone levels then?

The athlete who had lived her entire life as a woman, but failed the sex test would be able to carry on living as a woman and continue to compete in sporting events.

So if you had someone who had lived all her life as a woman, who failed the sex test where could she then compete? In the trans events, in the mens events?

Either would be fine, but I'd assume the open class which is what I'd rename the mens class. Women of female sex could also choose to compete in this open class if they wished, as being male sex, having gone through a male puberty, has absolutely no advantage over those who go through a female puberty according to some. If this open class is not suitable why not?
An open class and a female class, that's fair to everybody. Laurel Hubbard could take part in the open class without any controversy.

Then that’s the fault of the examiners.

It has little to do with the current unfairness of pseudo women competing in races where they have an advantage not related to effort and training.
Possibly the fairest way would be for them to run in the same races, but for there to be two sets of medals: gold silver and bronze for the female competitors, and gold silver and bronze medals for those who are trans women. That would actually benefit females as they would have a ‘pace maker’ to challenge them without actually having to beat someone who is racing with an unfair advantage.
Or transwomen can race with the men and transmen can race with the women. I wonder how many competitors there would be under those rules.
Tests should only involve performance enhancing drugs - etc, though I guess there would still be attempts to cheat.

Mollygo

Could you define ‘lived all her life as a woman’ please. Do you mean a female, born a female? Or a male, identifying as a woman from however young an age, who has continued to grow and develop as a male, despite the self id?

I mean people who have lived as females all their lives Mollygo who are sometimes, taller than most women and/or are flat chested and broadshouldered. They have been subjected to testing which has decided they are male. One athlete was driven to attempt suicide after this happened

I’m with you Rosie 51- ticking All the privilege boxes what a hollow triumph for trans women and a complete disregard of the Olympic ethos and values - “ Joy of Effort, Fair Play, Respect for Others; pursuit of excellence; and balance between body, will and mind.

petunia

The long running issue of people with DSD, distressing though it is, is deflecting from the issue of should transwomen (men) compete along side biological women. Conditions such as DSD are complex and rare and are not the same as being transgender.

The publicity around Laurel Hubbard has exposed what happens when reality meets ideology. We are told that now Hubbard is a woman, she will have no advantages over the other women. But Hubbard is one of those instances where we see that there are times when sex really matters. Its interesting that athletes with DSD are subject to tests to prove their sex but if a man declares himself to be a woman, we take his word for it.

Maybe we should re-examine why male and female sports were separated in the first place.

The problem is that there seem to be more people with DSD participating in high level sports than are usually found in any section of society. Having lived as women, they are challenged because of their physical appearance and if they fail must medicate themselves before they can participate again. Some say physical differences are found in every area and the only regulated one is sex.

Could you define ‘lived all her life as a woman’ please. Do you mean a female, born a female? Or a male, identifying as a woman from however young an age, who has continued to grow and develop as a male, despite the self id?

Rosie51 As far as I know the practice of physically examining women when they fail testosterone tests still continues. More about the testing here web.archive.org/web/20160628124045/http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/magazine/the-humiliating-practice-of-sex-testing-female-athletes.html
It was cerainly operating in 2016. The IAAF details among its experts gynaecologists who are there to do the deed I would think.
Some medical organisations are advising doctors not to take part in the tests which they consider un-scientific.
Interestingly some sportsmen have low testosterone levels which would in theory qualify them to take part in women's sports.
There's a long and complicated history here and things dont seem to be improving en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports

So if you had someone who had lived all her life as a woman, who failed the sex test where could she then compete? In the trans events, in the mens events?