Queen Victoria and Queen Elizabeth statues toppled in Canada

How does that work for Canadians who don’t want the queens statue? Should they also move? Make their own country? Oh wait…

Alegrias1

Chestnut

Grany, if you don't like this country then why not live somewhere else? Sometimes people don't realise how good they have it.

Totally uncalled for. What a horrible thing to write.

Surely true though. If you dislike a country so much you want to completely change it then why live there? And what about those who live there but don't want to change it? They probably wouldn't welcome your changes.

Chestnut

Alegrias1

Chestnut

Grany, if you don't like this country then why not live somewhere else? Sometimes people don't realise how good they have it.

Totally uncalled for. What a horrible thing to write.

Surely true though. If you dislike a country so much you want to completely change it then why live there? And what about those who live there but don't want to change it? They probably wouldn't welcome your changes.

Not true at all.

How boring to live in a country full of sheep who all think the same way.

Anyway, I don't recall Grany ever saying she didn't like our country, so what a silly thing to say.

And what about those who live there but don't want to change it?

Indeed! But what about the people who didn't want their country to leave the EU? Should all the Leave voters have shoved off to a country that wasn't in the EU because they were the ones who weren't happy?

It seems that quite a few posters regard this action as pointless. Others seem to think it is the thin end of the wedge and an indication of anarchy and lawlessness to come. Nobody really seems to be looking at what the statues themselves represent, particularly to the indigenous peoples of Canada.

Queen Victoria reigned during Britain's most successful and powerful days of empire – an empire on which the sun never set, except it eventually did. The British Empire was deeply arrogant and exploitative – as has been every other empire in the world. She was the figurehead of this arrogance and exploitation.

For indigenous peoples this was an invasion. They were mistreated, regarded as lesser and even disposable in the country in which they had lived for generations. Their beliefs and values, their culture and ethics were treated with contempt and they were made voiceless and powerless.

Why would their descendants wish to preserve a monument to that? Why would they not wish to destroy the monument to that? Were I in the same position, that is how I would feel.

I, a white English immigrant, live in a country that was formerly a colony. I am aware of racial tensions, racial inequalities. We have a Government that is trying to address that – and many other inequalities. But the indigenous people here, don't want statues of James Cook who killed their ancestors. He was the first map maker of New Zealand, which was both useful and an achievement. I think, he was the person who claimed this country where people already lived as a British property, just like Canada which was not an property either.

absent

Exactly

Absent exactly it is not rocket science is it. Why do people get upset about statues being knocked down. It is symbolic and part of trying to reclaim their country or to say we do not hold these people up as role models and have no respect for them. Why keep these out of date symbols on a plinth. Replace them with people who have made a stand.

Oliver Cromwell's soldiers destroyed statues. ISIS destroys statues. Henry VIII destroyed whole monasteries full of statues.

Ordinary people who are enraged by injustice destroy statues.

The latter reason for destroying statues is a good reason because injustice is much more important than religious dogmas.

Posters seem to forget or not realise parts of Canada are already divided between the English and the French. Why would the Quebecois want statues of Queen Victoria? I believe Cook was one of those who helped Wolfe defeat the French under Montcalm thus rendering Canada British rather than French. Neither side cared about the indigenous people except possibly as scouts.

I have been reading the fictional novels by Louise Penny about Quebec Inspector Gamage. In one case, I can’t remember which, he uncovers a can of worms with the exploitation of a native Canadian settlement which denied justice to a native Canadian whose son had been murdered as part of a cover up. This was only written a few years ago so is quite topical, and obviously well known that some indigenous people in Canada are still poorly treated. Put this dreadful school atrocity on top of that and it is incindary.

Is there any Canadian GNetter who can give us more info on how indigenous Canadians are treated as a whole? It seems very relevant.

eazybee

Toppling and destroying statues is vandalism and resolves nothing; it neither addresses nor rights the undoubted abuses that have happened in the past. With all the visual communication available grievances and concerns can be aired and discussed publicly without any need for violence.

People have tried other ways but they don't necessarily work. Visual events have a greater impact, I think. Look at the anti Vietnam War demos in the US and in London for example and the student riots in Paris in 1968.

The reporting of the toppling of statues is a visual means of communication and has brought the various issues to the attention of many people who may have previously been unaware.

But the indigenous people here, don't want statues of James Cook who killed their ancestors. He was the first map maker of New Zealand, which was both useful and an achievement. I think, he was the person who claimed this country where people already lived as a British property, just like Canada which was not an property either

Captain James Cook did claim areas as British property, on the instructions of The Crown and British Government.

However, to clarify, he and his men did not go on a wholesale slaughter of the indigenous population; they did kill 9 people at Gisborne when they first landed because they mistakenly thought the fearsome greeting by the local Maori people was a threat and Cook's men thought they were going to be killed.
He felt remorse and established good relations on his subsequent landings.

Abel Tasman (Dutch) had already 'discovered' New Zealand 120 years earlier but had a bloody encounter with its inhabitants.

The Maori Wars took place nearly 100 years after James Cook had mapped the country.

Many subsequent mistakes were made but should they be laid at the feet of James Cook?
Perhaps putting all statues into museums might be the best idea.

Didnt Captain Cook get killed by natives? Served him right. I bet there were days of mourning for him in Britain.

Dryginger why did it serve him right? He was primarily an explorer and navigator. Whilst looking for the fabled North West Passage he landed in Hawaii where he was unfortunately killed by a native.As Callistemon says you can’t blame him for everything that happened afterwards, and certainly not the inhuman treatment of the indigenous school children in Canada

But surely, the toppling of the statues has worked? It has brought this dreadful history to the forefront, brought the knowledge, the information to people who were likely unaware of the atrocities committed. I knew of the treatment of the native Americans, the Aboriginal people, the Maoris, but I did not know about this shameful period in Canada's history. So, to use a hackneyed phrase; it has raised awareness, even if some people are more bothered about a few unwanted statues than they are about the fate of thousands of children.

Dryginger

Didnt Captain Cook get killed by natives? Served him right. I bet there were days of mourning for him in Britain.

Why?
He was an explorer and navigator.

What came afterwards was none of his doing.
Perhaps you don't know much about history, Dryginger. I admit to not knowing that about Canada's history until recently.

GillT57 I only found out a little about the treatment of the Canadian indigenous peoples from watching Anne with an E (based on but not true to the Anne of Green Gables book) but have learned more since.

I have read a lot about Australian and New Zealand indigenous peoples.

Let’s get rid of the statues first and then the monarchy. Job done.

I beg your pardon Calliston but I know a lot about history!
Cook "Discovered" Hawaii even though there were people already living there. He killed natives flogged them and cut off there ears.
New Zealand have got a half arse apology from the British gov for what Cook and his crew of his ship Endevour did to the indigenous people when he landed there. Id advise you to check your History.

25Avalon

Posters seem to forget or not realise parts of Canada are already divided between the English and the French. Why would the Quebecois want statues of Queen Victoria? I believe Cook was one of those who helped Wolfe defeat the French under Montcalm thus rendering Canada British rather than French. Neither side cared about the indigenous people except possibly as scouts.

I have been reading the fictional novels by Louise Penny about Quebec Inspector Gamage. In one case, I can’t remember which, he uncovers a can of worms with the exploitation of a native Canadian settlement which denied justice to a native Canadian whose son had been murdered as part of a cover up. This was only written a few years ago so is quite topical, and obviously well known that some indigenous people in Canada are still poorly treated. Put this dreadful school atrocity on top of that and it is incindary.

Is there any Canadian GNetter who can give us more info on how indigenous Canadians are treated as a whole? It seems very relevant.

I posted quite a few links for further reading upthread

GillT57

But surely, the toppling of the statues has worked? It has brought this dreadful history to the forefront, brought the knowledge, the information to people who were likely unaware of the atrocities committed. I knew of the treatment of the native Americans, the Aboriginal people, the Maoris, but I did not know about this shameful period in Canada's history. So, to use a hackneyed phrase; it has raised awareness, even if some people are more bothered about a few unwanted statues than they are about the fate of thousands of children.

First mass burial sites were found at one school.
Then they started searching more schools.
More than 1500 graves/bodies found.
Then came the statue toppling and church burning (which no one seems to have been outraged by, yet).

Statues are a result, not the beginning

Summerlove Yes I read the links you very helpfully posted. I think I was wondering more about the attitudes of non indigenous Canadians towards the original native people.

Id advise you to check your History.
I have.

Dryginger

I beg your pardon Calliston but I know a lot about history!
Cook "Discovered" Hawaii even though there were people already living there. He killed natives flogged them and cut off there ears.
New Zealand have got a half arse apology from the British gov for what Cook and his crew of his ship Endevour did to the indigenous people when he landed there. Id advise you to check your History.

I really don't need a lecture on history from someone who cannot spell.

Callistemon I might not be able to spell but at least I know my history!

Joining in late to the conversation.

From my perspective, I am first generation Canadian from British and French parents. My husband is 2nd generation from European background, born and raised in a town with 45% First Nations people. We live in that same town, and we count FN's among our friends and co-workers.

The Truth and Reconciliation Commission was established in 2008 to seek truth and document the impact of Residential Schools. The Canadian Government with Prime Minister Stephen Harper formally apologized in 2008 for the treatment of children in the residential school system. The commission ended in 2015 and published a list of recommendations, including monetary settlement to any people that were enrolled in the system. All individuals were recompensed monetarily approx $10,000 each. This sad chapter in our history has been added to our history books and school curriculum. Increased funding for education of lost indigenous languages has been implemented. There were 94 different recommendations for changes, most of which are now completed. I have not read the report, and one of the issues I do not know about is the investigation, documentation and repatriation of any remains of dead children.

What has recently come to light is the unmarked graves on property of residential schools. These are not mass graves as some have mentioned, but organized graveyards with no markers, some of which have been forgotten over the years. The organizations that ran the schools would have been responsible to document the deaths and graves. So far the Catholic church has refused to provide any documentation. I am not sure of other churches including Anglican, Presbyterian and United, although these churches have also formally apologized for their mistreatment of children.

These recent discoveries have brought to the forefront the history and treatment of children that were forced away from their families into the institutionalized life of residential schools. Memories and stories are being recounted and told.

This week, we would normally be celebrating Canada Day on July 1, but celebrations were cancelled in order to commemorate and grieve with our FN's citizens. Our town had a march, with drumming and singing, ending up near the ocean with speeches and prayers. We didn't march, but witnessed the march with tears in our eyes.

Many conversations have taken place recently regarding this issue. How cruel were the decisions made in the past and what can possibly done to help repair the damage done over generations. My husband grew up here, and as a child went to school with FN's, they were schoolmates and living in his neighbourhood, in the 60's and 70's. He was admittedly unaware of the history of residential schools, and thought that only children in remote villages with no school went to them. I also grew up (in another part of the country with no FN's people in my town) unaware of the history until learning of it in the 80's or 90's.

Many of us 'recent' Canadians see this as a shameful issue in the past that happened before our families settled in this country. We have many multicultural residents from countries other than colonial empires that want to celebrate all that Canada is and the refuge it has become for people all over the world. I personally think that the Canadian Government is doing all they can to help the First Nations people move on with their grief and anger. The discoveries of these unmarked cemeteries has fueled the grief and an anger. What I don't like to see is the burning of churches (7 so far this week in Canada) vandalization of churches, and toppling of statues. I understand anger, but don't agree with this.

Lengthy post, but I did want to join in with my views.