Queen Victoria and Queen Elizabeth statues toppled in Canada

Dryginger are you an indigenous Canadian or descended from people who settled there?

If the latter you share any blame being dished out . And as for thinking toppling a statue serves any purpose whatsoever, you might prefer to look at Welfare Organisations for Native Canadians dispossessed of their homelands by your ancestors.
You could start by offering them your house or apartment.

I didnt say anything about pulling statues down. And yes im a white English woman and yes I do feel guilty for past British crimes in other countrys in the past. I dont understand your post MawBe.

I don’t believe blame can be apportioned to groups or individuals nowadays for action taken hundreds of years ago by others.
Am I guilty of the deaths at Bannockburn when the Scots beat the English ? Not even by association. My sister and her family emigrated to Nova Scotia 40 years ago - do they share in any guilt - or do you reserve that for 300 years previously?
There is too much breast beating, wailing and gnashing of teeth - easy to do and frankly posturing
Captain Cook and other explorers of his time cannot be judged by 21st century mores .
He and his crews faced unheard of dangers and their voyages of discovery have proved invaluable in our knowledge otf our world. Yes, they faced death, even probably expected it - but “served them right?” There’s gratitude for you. I don’t expect there were days of mourning - it was one of the many hazards they had to face.
Their vessel the Endeavour (note the spelling) was well named. You could say similar things of modern day astronauts exploring our universe.
The Queen and Queen Victoria have no connection with the appalling treatment of children in Catholic orphanages, any more than in other examples like the “Magdalene laundries”
So all this public emoting and fake guilt-apportioning may be a modern trend but is to me, an unconvincing one.

Good posts, CanadianGran (very informative) and MawBe.

I do admit to my ignorance of the history of Canada from the perspective of the indigenous population but do have some knowledge of that of Australia and New Zealand, the repercussions of which are still felt today.

I agree that we cannot judge historical events by today's standards and apologies by the governments of today for past transgressions against those populations are meaningless unless we all resolve to make sure we create a future of indigenous inclusion.

Thank you for your views CanadianGran. You are just the person I wanted to hear from.

Very well said MawBe.

This is an interesting read
"Declaration of Australia: three epic strands in a grand narrative" by Noel Pearson, Australian lawyer and lands rights activist
capeyorkpartnership.org.au/speeches/declaration-of-australia-three-epic-strands-in-a-grand-narrative-noel-pearson/

It was written a while ago before last year's demands for Captain Cook's statue to be removed from Hyde Park in Sydney.

I, of course, should not be saying this, given the villainy that I should properly attach to Cook. But the epic scale of his courage and captaincy is plain. It was the equivalent of manned space travel to the outer solar system. He limped into the country of my forefathers after running aground on coral at the reef now called Endeavour, into the harbour of a place we call Waymburr, what would thereafter be called Cooktown on the banks of the Endeavour River. The place of my birth. That 24-hour-long battle to refloat and save the stuck and leaking ship was a herculean struggle.
No epic is pure happiness and light. Cook’s voyage ultimately meant devastation and dispossession for the First Peoples. But it was still an epic voyage. Epics are about tragedy and heroism, cowardice and courage, the worst and best of humanity. The arrival of British institutions on the shoulders of the First Fleet, which became the law of this continent, is the second part of Australia’s epic story, commencing with Cook.

Progress is slow and activism continues but whether or not defacing and tearing down of statues is helping progress is debatable.

And what about those who live there but don't want to change it? They probably wouldn't welcome your changes.

Then they should use the ballot box to vote against those changes. And they should accept the results if the vote goes against them.

All countries change. If they didn’t we’d still be watching bear baiting and sending small children up chimneys and down coal mines.

Queen warned 'days numbered' for beloved luxury - staggering cost 'not financially viable'

THE QUEEN's royal train may be forced to follow in the footsteps of HMS Britannia and end up decommissioned due to its expensive bills, a royal financial expert has warned.

www.express.co.uk/news/royal/1457180/queen-news-elizabeth-ii-royal-train-monarchy-household-finances-uk-royal-family-latest-vn

I don’t think the Queen will be too worried. She already travels by ordinary train to Sandringham.

Summerlove

Lin52 of course it’s all bad.

But this is about the First Nations Children of Canada.

Bringing in “well what about this” devalues what the group we are discussing went through.

Why can’t people focus on how badly these children were treated without comparing? It’s like you don’t want to focus on it

I was answering Chestnuts words about workhouses, did you have a go at them, or is it just me you picked our.

The Queen travels by “ordinary train”? really? Squashed in with the bikes and buggies and wearing her face covering ? I bet she has her own carriage on said ordinary train.

25Avalon

This violence achieves nothing. It is all misdirected. The church responsible was the Roman Catholic Church. Similar things happened to Native Americans in the US - they didn’t have a monarch. Our workhouses here were pretty horrible too but they didn’t continue up to the 70’s. Something terribly wrong that this system existed for so long.

Criminal damage stirred up by left wing groups is not the answer. Part of the answer must be a thorough investigation of what happened such a relatively short time ago and presumably there may still be some living who can be brought to justice.

Good post Avalon
I would hope that past Canadian governments may be held to account as well. Statues are an easy target and I hope the violence stops there.What happened in the past should always be brought out into the light, it’s the only way to understand what happened and why and for it never to be repeated.

vegansrock

The Queen travels by “ordinary train”? really? Squashed in with the bikes and buggies and wearing her face covering ? I bet she has her own carriage on said ordinary train.

It's still an ordinary train. It's not only the Queen that has private carriages attached to ordinary trains, but perhaps not in the UK.

Several years ago a friend was invited to the US for a vacation on a train. The (very wealthy) host had some very comfortable carriages, complete with staff, that were attached to freight trains. Unfortunately the trains stopped in goods years and there would be a long wait, sometimes days, before the next suitable freight train came along. It would seem that money doesn't buy everything.

MawBe

I don’t believe blame can be apportioned to groups or individuals nowadays for action taken hundreds of years ago by others.
Am I guilty of the deaths at Bannockburn when the Scots beat the English ? Not even by association. My sister and her family emigrated to Nova Scotia 40 years ago - do they share in any guilt - or do you reserve that for 300 years previously?
There is too much breast beating, wailing and gnashing of teeth - easy to do and frankly posturing
Captain Cook and other explorers of his time cannot be judged by 21st century mores .
He and his crews faced unheard of dangers and their voyages of discovery have proved invaluable in our knowledge otf our world. Yes, they faced death, even probably expected it - but “served them right?” There’s gratitude for you. I don’t expect there were days of mourning - it was one of the many hazards they had to face.
Their vessel the Endeavour (note the spelling) was well named. You could say similar things of modern day astronauts exploring our universe.
The Queen and Queen Victoria have no connection with the appalling treatment of children in Catholic orphanages, any more than in other examples like the “Magdalene laundries”
So all this public emoting and fake guilt-apportioning may be a modern trend but is to me, an unconvincing one.

Well said.

Let’s face it, have the Royal Families, past and and to some extent present cared about anyone, indigenous or not, but themselves? They all have too many staff, who have been estranged from their families because of COVID for many months and too much money. We the ‘Empire’ have a very bad history, all to do with claiming land that wasn’t ours and acquiring wealth.

People have always been claiming land that isn’t theirs including theVikings, and the Romans.

The Mongols, the Ottomans, the Persians, the Greeks, the Normans, the Saxons, the Dutch, the Belgians, the Spanish, the Portuguese, the French, the Russians ..........
And the British.

The policies of various governments was misguided but it was the actual perpetrators who took advantage of the system who are to blame.

Don’t forget the Germans Callistemon

Newatthis Let’s face it, have the Royal Families, past and and to some extent present cared about anyone, indigenous or not, but themselves?
I can't believe you even said that. ? Have you no idea how much charitable work the Royal Family was and is involved in? Not only in the UK but the Commonwealth.

Pinkquartz
re oil companies tearing. up sacred lands ?One can only wonder who will be amongst those complaining when there is no oil to sustain their twenty first C lifestyle?

We are supposed to be doing away with the use of fossil fuels including oil.

25Avalon

People have always been claiming land that isn’t theirs including theVikings, and the Romans.

....and many neighbours, arguing the toss over a few inches of garden boundaries. Human nature.

Chestnut

Newatthis Let’s face it, have the Royal Families, past and and to some extent present cared about anyone, indigenous or not, but themselves?
I can't believe you even said that. ? Have you no idea how much charitable work the Royal Family was and is involved in? Not only in the UK but the Commonwealth.

A independent report Giving Evidence into Royals and Charities found RF don't visit more than 70% of charities so it's not worth having their patronage. RF only visit thoses they have an interest in or set up themselves and that are near to where they live.

Once in a zoom meeting someone asked Kate why have you not visited a charity you put your name to about 8 years ago. Oh Kate said It seems like only yesterday.

RF do not work hard they hardly work at all. And I agree they are only in it for themselves.

So you sit with them every day to see what they do? There may be a lot more involvement than just visiting.