Is the England football team killing this government’s cynical culture war

Exactly. Thanks.

And call it 'posturing' is just so low and vastly insulting.

The last couple of days haven't been a ringing endorsement of the "Kick it Out" initiative.

I endorse Tyrone Mings' tweet:

"You don't get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as 'Gesture Politics' and then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we're campaigning against, happens."

This is a young man who spent Christmas Day 2013 (before he was famous) feeding homeless people and started a football academy for boys and girls.

And there's Natalie Elphicke, who shared the following with fellow Conservatives on WhatsApp, presumably thinking they'd bve in agreement with her: "They lost - would it be ungenerous to suggest Rashford should have spent more time perfecting his game and less time playing politics."

It would appear that Mrs Elphicke doesn't follow Manchester United and doesn't know how many penalties Rashford has scored nor know how Rashford has spent his free time over the last year.

The whole team has agreed to donate their winnings to the NHS.

I used to be neutral about the players' taking the knee. I thought it was a gesture like clapping for the NHS. However, the fact that it's upset so many people has caused me to ask why they're so upset and has persuaded me that they should continue because it's needed, especially after the vile abuse of the black players.

How our Equalities Minister, amongst other MPs, can honestly claim there is no problem with racism in the UK is beyond me.

25Avalon

I don’t think there should be politics in football fullstop. How else are fans supposed to show they don’t approve of this political symbolism? They have a right to free expression too. We are NOT talking about monkey noises which is a separate issue and is indeed racist.

People such as Gary Neville, Tyrone Mings and Jadon Sancho have a right to free expression too, just as every member of the England squad does.

“If football is a role model for anything in life then it is for that – for equality. Where everybody is exactly the same, wherever you come from, you are absolutely the same. It’s all about who you are, not which colour you have or whatever.

“I know from my point of view people may think it’s easy to say that, but it’s not easy for me. It is just for us in football that it is completely natural, and that is how it should be everywhere, judge people only because of who they are and not because of other things.

“It is so dumb, so unbelievably dumb not to do it like this, so it is really hard for me to even understand a little bit how it can be like this. But it is like this and so we have to stand up, or we have to kneel – whatever we have to do we will do.

“One hundred per cent we have to do it to solve this situation, for now and for the future. The past we can not change, but the future we can change and that is what we all should try.” (Jürgen Klopp, Liverpool manager)

Where was the outcry about what Klopp said?

??? Klopp. What a man. That speech should be posted repeatedly everywhere. Re the OP - you know I think the tide is turning and this government are being left behind. It’s not about left or right or liberal or green. It’s about decency and integrity. For me - I hope it continues and grows. We deserve better as a nation.

Hope Natalie elphicke is regretting her snide “aren’t I amusing” comment about Rashford.

Lucca

Hope Natalie elphicke is regretting her snide “aren’t I amusing” comment about Rashford.

I expect she is, but only because she was found out. Presumably she thought all the people in her WhatsApp group were like-minded. At least one of them isn't.

"The last couple of days haven't been a ringing endorsement of the 'Kick it Out' initiative" I agree growstuff and sadly they haven't been a ringing endorsement of the message the England team were hoping to deliver by taking the knee.

Not everyone who has expressed their dislike of the teams decision to take the knee at the beginning of every match, and I am not including the ignorant 'fans' who booed this gesture, are racist.

I don't agree therefore that anyone who has spoken out against this gesture, pretends "to be disgusted when the very thing (they're) campaigning against happens".

Sadly, there's more than enough division in this country without creating more by claiming that unless you're in favour of the England team taking the knee, any outrage at the appalling racism we have seen is pretence and not genuine.

Growstuff there’s a lot more to the Tyrone Ming’s story. He is a Bath lad made good from his own sheer hard work and perseverance. At primary school age he and his family spent a year in a homeless shelter. He was rejected by the bigger football teams and played for smaller local teams supplementing his living working in a bar, before getting his chance at Ipswich. His Academy hires our 3G football pitch. So I follow his progress with interest and respect.

He and everyone else is entitled to their opinion as am I without being derided. Equality isn’t just about what colour you are either. It’s about disability, sexual orientation, being female etc. When are women footballers going to be properly recognised? When will they be paid the same as the men? Come on Klopp where are women footballers in your equality speech? Where are LGBTQ people?

Tory MP, Johnny Mercer. It's about time the decent Tory MPs (and I do believe that some of them are) started speaking up

Isn't this where someone says All lives matter

Give him a break Avalon. He can't include everybody. How about sending him an email to ask him.

Smileless I agree. As I also keep saying but few listen Kick it Out isn’t just about racism. It’s against all discrimination in football.

Smileless But it does show that there's still an issue, which so many deny. How would you suggest that people get their message across?

25Avalon

Smileless I agree. As I also keep saying but few listen Kick it Out isn’t just about racism. It’s against all discrimination in football.

Great! So let's make sure it's top of the agenda in the media and people's thinking when the new season starts.

Should we commit to having a thread about it on the front page of GN until it's no longer needed?

growstuff

Give him a break Avalon. He can't include everybody. How about sending him an email to ask him.

But he said football was for equality, where everybody is the same. Except women, LGBTQ+, and disabled. That’s a lot of excluded people.

Galaxy

I think in terms of free speech people are probably entitled to boo, in terms of manners and morality are they entitled to boo, that's a different question. I dont agree with having a Royal Family, and in terms of free speech it is my right to say that, what I dont do in terms of common decency is boo every time I am in public and the national anthem is played. I understand that the anthem is important to many people and I respect that, therefore I dont behave like an idiot.

Totally agree. Unfortunately some fans are ill educated and rejoice in their own ignorance. As for the horrors that were perpetuated at Wembley, really don’t think that we should even be considered for the 2030 World Cup.

25Avalon

Growstuff there’s a lot more to the Tyrone Ming’s story. He is a Bath lad made good from his own sheer hard work and perseverance. At primary school age he and his family spent a year in a homeless shelter. He was rejected by the bigger football teams and played for smaller local teams supplementing his living working in a bar, before getting his chance at Ipswich. His Academy hires our 3G football pitch. So I follow his progress with interest and respect.

He and everyone else is entitled to their opinion as am I without being derided. Equality isn’t just about what colour you are either. It’s about disability, sexual orientation, being female etc. When are women footballers going to be properly recognised? When will they be paid the same as the men? Come on Klopp where are women footballers in your equality speech? Where are LGBTQ people?

Marcus Rashford comes from a similar background. They're living proof that meritocracy can work, so the Tories should love them.

Politics has always played an indirect role in soccer. For many non-privileged (and sometimes not very academic) boys (and now some girls) it's an aim and way to get out of poverty. Sport stars have always been role models to many young people.

25Avalon

growstuff

Give him a break Avalon. He can't include everybody. How about sending him an email to ask him.

But he said football was for equality, where everybody is the same. Except women, LGBTQ+, and disabled. That’s a lot of excluded people.

Where has he ever said anything about women, LGBTQ+ and disabled being excluded from equality?

Yes Growstuff let’s Kick Out all discrimination. Let’s educate our kids, spectators, coaches and anyone involved with football with the FA Respect campaign. Get parents, players staff and spectators to sign a code of respect document. Anyone not following it to be kicked out. Yes, believe it or not we already have this at grassroots level. Let’s have it at all levels and police it.

By omission Growstuff and by what I know is happening in football as a club Secretary of over 25 years.

Klopp on women's football:

fawslfulltime.co.uk/2020/12/17/fawslft-liverpool-boss-klopp-pleased-to-see-football-recognised-at-the-best-fifa-football-awards/

In any case, this thread is about racism. By all means, start another about equality in general, but why distract for the subject of this one?

I thought it was about booing the taking of the knee which isn’t necessarily racism.

25Avalon

I thought it was about booing the taking of the knee which isn’t necessarily racism.

Well explain exactly what it is. You've claimed it is a Marxist movement. Well what if it is? Are Marxists not permitted or allowed in football? Should a team be booed at all? Isn't booing an indication of disapproval and therefore an expression of discrimination no matter what the reason. You can't really argue for equality and then permit such behaviour.

I'd like to know what the booing is supposed to signify too.

If it's just a meaningless gesture and, therefore, meaningless, why does it bother anybody?

Personally, I hate the current fad for plastering the union jack on public buildings and groceries because it's a gesture which signifies something negative to me, but I don't boo when I see it - or even refuse to buy eggs with a union jack on the box.

It must mean something serious to the people who boo.

Come to think of it, I've always bowed my head and been silent when I've found myself in a situation where I've been asked to pray. I'm an atheist. I honestly believe religion is mumbo-jumbo, but I respect the people to whom praying matters.