Is the England football team killing this government’s cynical culture war

I agree growstuff that it shows there's an issue which some deny. I have felt for some time that all England clubs should have an agreement that if any player is subjected to racism during the match, they should walk off.

I wonder how many disrupted and potentially un finished matches it would take to shut these racists up.

Booing is a display of disapproval but not necessarily an expression of discrimination, and there in lies the problem IMO trisher. Booing is sheer bad manners what ever the reason and I'm ashamed of the so called fans who've done this. However, showing your displeasure at how some one expresses their view of, as in this case racism, does not mean that all who are against the taking of the knee before every game, must be racist.

It is expressing dislike of taking the knee which is very different from discrimination. I’m not particularly interested in going over that same old ground. I was merely replying to Growstuff’s previous post.

Were all those other teams in the Euros who didn’t kneel down racist? What about all other athletes such as those at Wimbledon, the Lions Rugby squad etc are these athletes racist? Racism is abhorrent and I am appalled at the treatment of the three young players who have been singled out as a result of missed penalties. However, I feel that ‘taking the knee’ is actually dividing people and weakening the stance on racism. We need to move away from accusations that anyone who disagrees with ‘taking the knee’ at sports events is racist. Of course booing is wrong but we need to stand together to defeat racism.

Exactly Avalon

Well said Gwyneth

You can express dislike in a number of ways , by turning your back, by walking away. Booing is historically and currently a way of trying to intimidate and silence people it is therefore by its very nature discriminatory. It is used to stop people being heard and to prevent people expressing views they have a perfect right to hold. It is in fact the public demonstration of the views expressed on social media. You can't support one without giving implied support to the other.

What about all other athletes such as those at Wimbledon, the Lions Rugby squad etc are these athletes racist?

What a strange leap in logic to assume that other athletes could be construed as racist because they don't take the knee. There's no obligation on them to perform any sort of gesture before participating in their sport, but there is no obligation on them not to do so if they so wish.

Do rugby spectators boo the All Blacks when they perform their haka before every game? It's just as much a ritual and symbolic act as is taking the knee.

What a ridiculous fuss abut a harmless gesture. This country is losing its collective mind...

We'll have to disagree Gwyneth. From being somebody who wasn't that bothered about taking the knee, I've moved on to somebody who supports it because the message inspiring it is has been shown to be important. And, no, I don't see that a person who doesn't do it is racist - that's just silly.

MaizieD

^What about all other athletes such as those at Wimbledon, the Lions Rugby squad etc are these athletes racist? ^

What a strange leap in logic to assume that other athletes could be construed as racist because they don't take the knee. There's no obligation on them to perform any sort of gesture before participating in their sport, but there is no obligation on them not to do so if they so wish.

Do rugby spectators boo the All Blacks when they perform their haka before every game? It's just as much a ritual and symbolic act as is taking the knee.

What a ridiculous fuss abut a harmless gesture. This country is losing its collective mind...

Spot on. Booing the gesture is Ill mannered in the extreme .
Priti Patel hasn’t helped by calling it “gesture politics” I’m almost thinking politicians should refrain entirely from social media commenting?

What about when fans show their disapproval and boo a poor refereeing decision, a bad tackle, or poor performance by their team? Is that racist?

Fans are used to showing their disapproval by booing.

growstuff

I'd like to know what the booing is supposed to signify too.

If it's just a meaningless gesture and, therefore, meaningless, why does it bother anybody?

Personally, I hate the current fad for plastering the union jack on public buildings and groceries because it's a gesture which signifies something negative to me, but I don't boo when I see it - or even refuse to buy eggs with a union jack on the box.

It must mean something serious to the people who boo.

Not a current fad re Union Flag. Supermarkets have done it for years. Makes it easier to pick out British produce, which for me is a good thing. I feel we need to support our farmers and producers.

25Avalon

What about when fans show their disapproval and boo a poor refereeing decision, a bad tackle, or poor performance by their team? Is that racist?

Fans are used to showing their disapproval by booing.

Of course it's not racist. It is however bad sportsmanship and something which never used to happen. It is of course an attempt once again to intimidate the referee and influence decisions (referees also come in for a huge amount of abuse in person and on-line). Are you beginning to see the link 25Avalon?. Booing -a group demonstration, and attempt to intimidate and influence. Social Media Posts-individual statements with the same aims. You seldom get one without the other.

25Avalon

What about when fans show their disapproval and boo a poor refereeing decision, a bad tackle, or poor performance by their team? Is that racist?

Fans are used to showing their disapproval by booing.

Nothing like a bit of false equivalence

Dianne Abbot has just been told not to say the N word on Daily Politics surely she is the only person on that channel atm who is allowed to say it. The white man in the corner has suggested Diane Abbot is causing problems

Lin52

growstuff

I'd like to know what the booing is supposed to signify too.

If it's just a meaningless gesture and, therefore, meaningless, why does it bother anybody?

Personally, I hate the current fad for plastering the union jack on public buildings and groceries because it's a gesture which signifies something negative to me, but I don't boo when I see it - or even refuse to buy eggs with a union jack on the box.

It must mean something serious to the people who boo.

Not a current fad re Union Flag. Supermarkets have done it for years. Makes it easier to pick out British produce, which for me is a good thing. I feel we need to support our farmers and producers.

Strangely enough, I'm capable of reading the word "British" on a box or jar. I don't need them (or public buildings to be emblazoned) with union jacks.

25Avalon

What about when fans show their disapproval and boo a poor refereeing decision, a bad tackle, or poor performance by their team? Is that racist?

Fans are used to showing their disapproval by booing.

Er? Of course it isn't. It's showing disapproval, as the fans who booed the players' taking the knee did. Why did they disapprove?

I think this provides a balanced view than many.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-57382945

Well, I'm afraid I don't agree with "Andrew" of Lincoln. It's a gesture and disapproving of it by booing also sends a message.

Growstuff: Yes, I wouldn't boo the gesture either, even though I would prefer a different gesture of togetherness; but if we don't seek out explanations of why people do things, we will not understand.

I think the report also mentions that booing can be drowned out by applause from the rest of the crowd, an aspect often missed. So, why not have everyone applauding, a gesture that brings us together, rather than a gesture that drive us apart. I think Denmark players applauded before the semi-final so there is a precedent.

As long as the players continue to be subjected to appalling racist abuse, I will support their taking a public stance against that, however they choose to do so.

I could have cried when I saw what had been done to the Marcus Rashford mural.

Trisher booing is not a new thing. It is not “something which never used to happen”. I have been going to or watching football for 40 odd years and heard it. Sometimes the booing is directed against bad sportsmanship as for example when a player is badly fouled.

“ tSometimes the booing is directed against bad sportsmanship as for example when a player is badly fouled.”

This is fine. The booing of anthems and gestures of solidarity such as taking the knee, are not.

I know many didn’t approve of the clapping for the nhs, would booing that gesture be acceptable?

You keep trying to deflect 25Avalon, booing is of course unacceptable for any reason, but can you not see the difference between booing an opposing team, or a referee, and booing when a group of people choose to show their solidarity with other players by kneeling? If it displeases someone, they should just stay silent surely? I understand the tribalism of football, the excitement, being carried away by the mood of the crowd, but surely, 20 seconds or so at the start of a match can be tolerated? I am neither a monarchist nor a Christian, but when I attend a WI meeting, I do not boo, or sneer. I stand quietly and respectfully as others sing the National Anthem and Jerusalem, it really isn't difficult.

Football cannot be compared with the WI.

There has been an interesting report by the Fabian Society which has suggested that much of the focus on the so called “cultural war” is based on confected controversy, with the debate artificially inflamed by politicians of all colour, commentators and then picked up and amplified by social media - presumably GN is also guilty.

I think that is right.

“The society has warned politicians from all sides to avoid participating in such antics lest political discourse in Britain becomes as fractured as that in the US.

The temptations for all political parties are clear. Riling up a base and pointing it at an imaginary enemy is much easier than doing the hard yards involved in meeting the prime ministers ambition to “level up” .

Equally, ignoring rivals attempts to sow division won’t help Keir Starmer assemble a broad and diverse coalition to back his vision.

The artificial emphasis and attacks on so called “woke culture” and the campaign to prevent museums and galleries from critically re-examining Britain’s past, pits the community against each other where no controversy should exist.”

So applying that to the so called bending the knee controversy. The community of the U.K. largely supports the fight against racism, and this fight can take many ways and routes. Just as folk take different routes and approaches to other areas, but over which we all largely agree.

So let’s not be played, let’s be more intelligent than that and refute false arguments and division.