Gransnet forums

News & politics

The world is becoming more peaceful

(102 Posts)
Whitewavemark2 Sun 04-Jul-21 10:46:44

I watched a programme about the psychology of violence on BBC2 I think it was, over two nights.

The basic premise was that over the millennia the world has become less violent, due they argued to the level of testosterone falling in the male of the human species.

For those amongst you who want this to be backed up with facts, I am afraid I am going to disappoint, but that really isn’t what I am going to argue about. What interested me was the research into why and how violence was becoming less.

The thesis is that accepting the fact that testosterone levels are very gradually dropping, and that violence is less if you looked at the relative number of people killed over the millennia , the scientists looked at the apparent trigger points for violence.
One interesting fact was that 98% of violent deaths in the world are done by males.

What they found was that the more cohesive society was the less violence there is. So in a society where division is encouraged the more violence there is.

They then looked at recent political phenomena where violence has increased. The most obvious one is Germany, where an extreme form of nationalism resulted in the division of society and the deaths of millions of people. However, the researchers went on to suggest that any form of nationalism creates division, where violence increases, citing Trumps America, China, etc.
What characterises these governments was the authoritarian sometimes populist but always nationalist.

The scientist then tried to work out why, populations were as in Germany’s case apparently willing to comply with violence, division and hate. They pointed to various experiments done by psychologists (some of you will be familiar with them) where people are told by an figure “in authority” to inflict pain on a “subject” . The conclusion was that most people will believe those who are seen as the authority, without criticism. Those who are critical will be “othered” or ignored.
This is seen as why we can never be complacent and that authoritarian, nationalists should always be questioned and criticised in order for society to remain at peace.

I leave you with this, written by someone in a country has experienced what it is like to ignore the danger signals.

Britain. A German view.

“the outlines of an autocratic regime can be seen: attacks on freedom of expression & assembly, blatant corruption, cold-hearted politics against migrants”

“the opposition is sleeping”

“the govt must be forced by the public”
Wer Boris Johnson für einen Politclown hielt, hat sich getäuscht. Er verändert Großbritannien in eine autoritäre Richtung.
taz.de

varian Tue 06-Jul-21 19:23:27

Here is the answer to the question"Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union, or leave the European Union?"over the last years.

whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-remain-a-member-of-the-european-union-or-leave-the-european-union-asked-after-the-referendum/?removed

The country has always been divided, but for nearly all of the last five years most people wanted the UK ro remain in the EU.

Unfortunately the foreign interference (esp Russian interference on social media) was successful in achieving a narrow win on that crucial date in 2016.

Whitewavemark2 Tue 06-Jul-21 18:26:26

MaizieD

^I think that the Referendum (and its result’s rejection by Remainers, ) Project Fear, the BLM, Extinction Rebellion and other recent Marxist inspired and Woke violent activist protests, the attempted hijacking of the National Trust, the British Library, Oxford and Cambridge University free speech platforms ( and free speech in general) all render a popular kickback against elitism perfectly justifiable^.

As people are trying to keep this thread civilised I won't pass an opinion on this. I just don't agree with a word of it.

All opinions welcome ???

Whitewavemark2 Tue 06-Jul-21 18:25:44

varian

Johnson may not exactly be, as Trump called him "Britain Trump", but there is a lot about him that is Trumpian.

Why are so many fooled by Trump or by our version of Trump with better Latin?

I think that is such an interesting question about why people comply with stuff that is obviously wrong or false. The psychologist suggests that it is that phenomena where those seen as being in authority are followed or obeyed without criticism.

People seem to continue to believe even when it is shown to be absolutely false. E.g. the USA election.

MaizieD Tue 06-Jul-21 18:24:36

I think that the Referendum (and its result’s rejection by Remainers, ) Project Fear, the BLM, Extinction Rebellion and other recent Marxist inspired and Woke violent activist protests, the attempted hijacking of the National Trust, the British Library, Oxford and Cambridge University free speech platforms ( and free speech in general) all render a popular kickback against elitism perfectly justifiable.

As people are trying to keep this thread civilised I won't pass an opinion on this. I just don't agree with a word of it.

varian Tue 06-Jul-21 18:21:19

Hitler was very effective at dividing the German population into "Arians" and "others" and stirring up hatred of the "others" - Jews, Homosexuals, Slovaks, Gypsies, Russians then eventually the Allies who stood up to him, but what a dreadful time that was.

Most of us did not live through it. We must never again let a populist nationalist leader encourage flag waving, getting school children to sing silly nationalistic songs or restrict voting rights.

grannyrebel7 Tue 06-Jul-21 18:13:01

Just think what happened in Nazi Germany when Hitler was on the rise. Need I say more? This present government is extremely nationalistic. People need to open their eyes to what's happening all around them.

varian Tue 06-Jul-21 18:08:24

Johnson may not exactly be, as Trump called him "Britain Trump", but there is a lot about him that is Trumpian.

Why are so many fooled by Trump or by our version of Trump with better Latin?

Jillybird Tue 06-Jul-21 18:01:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Whitewavemark2 Tue 06-Jul-21 17:11:47

Interestingly I have been reading an article today that suggests Johnson is not the libertarian he likes people to think he is.

DA Green argues that Johnson is in fact a political libertine that he believes that rules and laws are for other people, not him.

He has attacked
The judiciary
The impartial civil service
The diplomatic Corps
The public service broadcaster

He has disregarded the speaker of the house, the electoral commission, and so on.

If he can weakened a check or balance he will do so. He will not be told what to do.

Libertarians seek to limit the power of the state to benefit the general populace, but Johnson’s action do not support this.

He is seeking to disenfranchise people with the Electoral Integrity Bill.

His politics have been one of culture war, division and confrontation.

There is nothing that encourages social inclusion and solidarity.

The general thrust of Johnson’s government is authoritarianism.

There are many words to describe Johnson, but libertarian is not one of them.

Alegrias1 Tue 06-Jul-21 17:07:13

I know exactly what you mean WWM2!

Whitewavemark2 Tue 06-Jul-21 16:54:11

Alegrias1

It wasn't you WWM2, apologies if I made you think that.

?phew!

anniel I am sorry if I sound lofty at times, but I really don’t mean to. I try very hard not to personalise my posts (sorry alegrias) on these sort of threads as I don’t like directing personal insults at folk, as I think it is unpleasant and unnecessary. I don’t always succeed I know that but That is why they probably read as lofty because I try to make them impersonal.

I think that it is possible to have a really good discussion and debate without being personal.

Lilyflower Tue 06-Jul-21 16:47:42

“The conclusion of the programme though was that violence is worse or is more likely when governments are nationalistic, populist and authoritarian, the German writer warned that the U.K. government is showing exactly those tendencies and the populace needs to be very careful of the way we are heading.”

The U.K. government has been forced by Covid-19 to take a temporary authoritarian stance to beat the virus. It is now moving us out of Lockdown which was something that B.J. a libertarian by education and instinct, reluctantly enacted to ‘flatten the curve’ and save the N.H.S.

As for ‘Nationalistic’, as a country comprising four nations and as an outward looking world trader and the biggest single air hub on earth with a huge mix of cultures and religions, that label simply doesn’t fit. Sure, some people have extreme and disagreeable opinions but so does anywhere.

As for populist, a dictionary definition of this is “a person, especially a politician, who strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups.” and as applied to a nation would be characterised by a groundswell of protest against the hijacking of the rights and concerns of ordinary people by arrogant ruling groups, government, business, law and institutions. I think that the Referendum (and its result’s rejection by Remainers, ) Project Fear, the BLM, Extinction Rebellion and other recent Marxist inspired and Woke violent activist protests, the attempted hijacking of the National Trust, the British Library, Oxford and Cambridge University free speech platforms ( and free speech in general) all render a popular kickback against elitism perfectly justifiable.

Alegrias1 Tue 06-Jul-21 16:36:30

It wasn't you WWM2, apologies if I made you think that.

Whitewavemark2 Tue 06-Jul-21 16:34:53

The programme was looking at violent death from interstate warfare, and based on that.

What they suggested However is that intrastate violence like homocide , rape, hate crime etc increases in societies that are populist, nationalistic and authoritarian.

I apologise if I’ve suggested that people are intellectually challenged?. If you can point it out I will ask GN to delete it.

Alegrias1 Tue 06-Jul-21 16:27:30

4allweknow

Where does all that leave Scotland? Nationalism is at the fore in politicians and a good many supporters as has been seen with the banners at the border.

I'm polishing my claymore as we speak. ⚔

Alegrias1 Tue 06-Jul-21 16:26:03

I don't know if we are more violent now, but I'm at least willing to consider the idea. Just because we see violence every day on our TVs that doesn't mean society is more violent, it just means we get to see it on the tea time news.

A quick google, certainly not scientific. The annual murder rate in medieval London was about 20 people per 100,000. Today the annual murder rate in UK cities is about 1/20th of that.

I wouldn't feel it necessary though, to tell people who have a different view that they are intellectually challenged. hmm

Whitewavemark2 Tue 06-Jul-21 16:17:04

narrowboatnan

I find it more worrying that testosterone levels are dropping. Why is that happening? Is it chemicals that we use daily, chemicals in our food, our drinks, or what? ?‍♀️

? no it has been happening over thousands of years. The males face length which is a good indicator of testosterone has gradually shortened over the years that and other bone structure indicates that there is less testosterone rushing around. Testosterone is associated with greater violence than oestrogen and so this explains a lessoning of violence amongst other things.

4allweknow Tue 06-Jul-21 15:25:27

Where does all that leave Scotland? Nationalism is at the fore in politicians and a good many supporters as has been seen with the banners at the border.

MerylStreep Tue 06-Jul-21 15:17:39

Rachand
I don’t think the Taliban will have it all their own way.

nypost.com/2021/07/05/china-ramping-up-afghanistan-involvement-amid-us-withdrawal/

narrowboatnan Tue 06-Jul-21 15:03:33

I find it more worrying that testosterone levels are dropping. Why is that happening? Is it chemicals that we use daily, chemicals in our food, our drinks, or what? ?‍♀️

Anniel Tue 06-Jul-21 14:56:22

I nearly burst out laughing at the thought of less violence in the world! It was obviously written before the latest news in Afghanistan! Then look at Hong Kong and the Middle East. If I could just tell WhiteWater Mark that there are not many intellectually challenged people in Gransnet and sometimes your comments sound lofty when addressing those who disagree with your opinions. We need to deal in facts. Boris Johnson annoys me in many ways but he is a libertarian and not a right wing fanatic. Then it is is crude nationalism brought on by Brexit. Have you travelled much? ( I am being condescending here) but go to France, Greece, USA, Russia and many other countries where nationalism is a fact of life and try insulting people about their countries and you will not get far. People who voted remain lost a democratic vote but they think that everyone who voted for it is a narrow minded St George flag waving, ignorant nationalist. Well many of us disagree with that sentiment. I would remind you that Jeremy Corbyn and many on the left were in favour of Brexit. So please do not rely on programmes that have no real basis in fact.

Lemon Grove and others disagree with you. We are members here and all opinions are allowed however much we disagree.

When Labour is democratically elected to run the country then you may be in the majority but you are not at present!

Shelagh6 Tue 06-Jul-21 14:33:23

Hard to believe!

GillT57 Tue 06-Jul-21 13:51:47

The dreadful events in Afghanistan, North Korea and China are deliberate 'state' sponsored violence with an intended purpose, presumably subjugation, so it is to my mind, deliberate and calculated and not the spontaneous violence that the report was talking about. However, I did hear on the radio last night, reports of a dreadful outbreak of (even more) gun crime in USA, drive by shootings yesterday, more noticeable I suppose as it was around July 4th. Around 375 shootings, 140 dead.

GrammarGrandma Tue 06-Jul-21 13:51:21

Yesterday, in among the 4th July celebrations, there were hundreds of shootings and deaths in the USA. I don't think "we" are becoming more peaceful.

Rachand Tue 06-Jul-21 12:55:22

Well it might be about to change … the Taliban are retaking Afghanistan. Also perhaps it’s not taking into account the opinion of those living in North Korean labour camps or perhaps even those who would like to buy an independent newspaper in Hong Kong. Evil will always be around I’m afraid.