Gransnet forums

News & politics

The world is becoming more peaceful

(101 Posts)
Whitewavemark2 Sun 04-Jul-21 10:46:44

I watched a programme about the psychology of violence on BBC2 I think it was, over two nights.

The basic premise was that over the millennia the world has become less violent, due they argued to the level of testosterone falling in the male of the human species.

For those amongst you who want this to be backed up with facts, I am afraid I am going to disappoint, but that really isn’t what I am going to argue about. What interested me was the research into why and how violence was becoming less.

The thesis is that accepting the fact that testosterone levels are very gradually dropping, and that violence is less if you looked at the relative number of people killed over the millennia , the scientists looked at the apparent trigger points for violence.
One interesting fact was that 98% of violent deaths in the world are done by males.

What they found was that the more cohesive society was the less violence there is. So in a society where division is encouraged the more violence there is.

They then looked at recent political phenomena where violence has increased. The most obvious one is Germany, where an extreme form of nationalism resulted in the division of society and the deaths of millions of people. However, the researchers went on to suggest that any form of nationalism creates division, where violence increases, citing Trumps America, China, etc.
What characterises these governments was the authoritarian sometimes populist but always nationalist.

The scientist then tried to work out why, populations were as in Germany’s case apparently willing to comply with violence, division and hate. They pointed to various experiments done by psychologists (some of you will be familiar with them) where people are told by an figure “in authority” to inflict pain on a “subject” . The conclusion was that most people will believe those who are seen as the authority, without criticism. Those who are critical will be “othered” or ignored.
This is seen as why we can never be complacent and that authoritarian, nationalists should always be questioned and criticised in order for society to remain at peace.

I leave you with this, written by someone in a country has experienced what it is like to ignore the danger signals.

Britain. A German view.

“the outlines of an autocratic regime can be seen: attacks on freedom of expression & assembly, blatant corruption, cold-hearted politics against migrants”

“the opposition is sleeping”

“the govt must be forced by the public”
Wer Boris Johnson für einen Politclown hielt, hat sich getäuscht. Er verändert Großbritannien in eine autoritäre Richtung.
taz.de

Nezumi65 Sun 04-Jul-21 12:59:38

That's very true about BloJo.

I loathe the populist approach. At least the attempts to get every child in school singing that ridiculous song was a bit of a damp squib.

Namsnanny Sun 04-Jul-21 13:11:54

Ive seen this and many other programs in a similar vein
Which left me with so many unanswered questions, I came to the conclusion there isnt enough available info going back far enough to conclude anything.
So, for me it still looks as if trade is the main reason for less war.
But, I'll leave others to cogitate the matter more fully.
wink

valdali Sun 04-Jul-21 13:21:21

The violence there is though, is so much worse. Aerial bombardment, suicide bombs, gunshot wounds. Less fisticuffs perhaps, but the modern world offers so many more ways to hurt other people - buying sweatshop goods ( I sometimes do, not being righteous here), employment discrimination, the imperative to make the best of yourself but the opportunities denied by subtle but all-present inequalities.

Whitewavemark2 Sun 04-Jul-21 13:33:52

The conclusion of the programme though was that violence is worse or is more likely when governments are nationalistic, populist and authoritarian, the German writer warned that the U.K. government is showing exactly those tendencies and the populace needs to be very careful of the way we are heading.

love0c Sun 04-Jul-21 13:50:21

Steven Pinker has stated the world is a less dangerous place and that violence has declined.

nanna8 Sun 04-Jul-21 13:53:45

Brexit was just the start then ?

M0nica Sun 04-Jul-21 14:15:11

^ but the modern world offers so many more ways to hurt other people - buying sweatshop goods ( I sometimes do, not being righteous here), employment discrimination, the imperative to make the best of yourself but the opportunities denied by subtle but all-present inequalities.^

Nothing new about any of that, it has always been with us.

What about 3 year olds working in mines, boys up chimneys, always, always, always exploitive labour whether you were man woman and child, women excluded from professions or not allowed to make progress, the whole system of patronage, still with us, but not so explicit or egregious.

Different types at different times. There are now no 3 year olds down mines, nor small boys up chimneys but if a man woman or child are being exploited does it really make any difference what they are actually doing?

Whitewavemark2 Sun 04-Jul-21 14:19:45

monica and vivaldi That is widening the concept beyond the scope of the theory, so difficult to comment.

Whitewavemark2 Sun 04-Jul-21 15:03:18

I would just like to put this in the mix though.

The England Football Team have built their success on the idea of collective responsibility and mutual support. The complete antithesis of nationalism and division postulated by Johnson, Patel etc.

GillT57 Sun 04-Jul-21 15:24:38

I can begin to understand this theory and find it interesting. I don't consider human rights violations and abuses such as sweat shops, to be violence per se, however loathsome the practice. Nationalism is always something which has mystified me, it is not something we are able to control; none of us have any say at all in where our Mother was when we were born. Regrettably, the Union Flag and the St.George Cross, to me, have become associated with extreme nationalism, and those of us who were described in another thread ( about football) as they have been described as being anti-British just because of our preference to stay in the EU. I am not getting this across very well, and no doubt will have a pile upon later form mentioning Brexit, but the increasing use of nationalism to attempt to justify human rights abuses as P Patel is doing is an ugly insight into the mind of the nationalists and their supporters.

Whitewavemark2 Sun 04-Jul-21 16:06:11

You are right about Brexit being associated with nationalism though.

It would have been difficult to argue the case without the idea if nationalism being in the mix.

lemongrove Sun 04-Jul-21 16:13:18

Is there a forum rule that I didn’t know existed....somebody has to start at least two government bashing threads per day ?

Whitewavemark2 Sun 04-Jul-21 16:14:17

lemongrove

Is there a forum rule that I didn’t know existed....somebody has to start at least two government bashing threads per day ?

Still nothing of value to add then except silly remarks?

lemongrove Sun 04-Jul-21 16:17:55

Plenty of value, as it makes clear what the agenda of the thread is, half hidden as it is under a load of other things, but wait, yep, it’s a government bashing thread....again.
The German writer that is quoted in the OP is just one person and their opinion.

love0c Sun 04-Jul-21 16:18:33

Lemongrove I tend to agree. Sometimes people I do not like do things that I like. Sometimes people I like do things that I do not like. I find it very sad that so many people are unwilling or indeed unable to see this for themselves. Maybe that is why we are where we are?

Whitewavemark2 Sun 04-Jul-21 16:18:52

lemongrove

Plenty of value, as it makes clear what the agenda of the thread is, half hidden as it is under a load of other things, but wait, yep, it’s a government bashing thread....again.
The German writer that is quoted in the OP is just one person and their opinion.

Still nothing of value

lemongrove Sun 04-Jul-21 16:19:48

I don’t believe for one minute ( in any case) that the world is becoming a less violent place.So that’s my ‘one person, one opinion.’

Whitewavemark2 Sun 04-Jul-21 16:22:21

lemongrove

I don’t believe for one minute ( in any case) that the world is becoming a less violent place.So that’s my ‘one person, one opinion.’

Thank you for that profound statement. I’m sure the scientists and psychologists behind this theory will be grateful.

AGAA4 Sun 04-Jul-21 16:23:21

I think I am realising that you don't like the Tories as you use every whichway to have a dig. This could have been an interesting
discussion.

discussionn

AGAA4 Sun 04-Jul-21 16:27:17

Crazy phone

valdali Sun 04-Jul-21 16:43:49

GillT
I do so agree about the St George cross, in my mind too it's become, maybe wrongly, associated with extremist elements. (football tournaments excepted). Why should you be thought anti-British if you live here, worked and /or raised a family here, contribute to society here, and are not plotting for some foreign power? Much better to serve our country and each other by doing our bit, treating each other with respect, than by waving flags, singing patriotic jingles and looking askance at other nationalities.
I hope the world is becoming more peaceful, but with the pressure on resources from climate change predicted, will it to be hard to sustain that?

GillT57 Sun 04-Jul-21 16:55:31

lemongrove

Is there a forum rule that I didn’t know existed....somebody has to start at least two government bashing threads per day ?

No there isn't such a rule. Neither is there a rule that you have to come on to every thread to point out that it is 'government bashing' relax, we can manage to chat and discuss this without you, thanks

timetogo2016 Sun 04-Jul-21 17:23:25

I agree with you Lemongrove,pretty much everyday i hear/read that someone has been stabbed to death,we are getting so much like America IMO.
Which btw i am allowed.

Whitewavemark2 Sun 04-Jul-21 17:49:54

timetogo2016

I agree with you Lemongrove,pretty much everyday i hear/read that someone has been stabbed to death,we are getting so much like America IMO.
Which btw i am allowed.

As the academics pointed out the more nationalistic a government is the more likely there to be violence.