Occasionally, just occasionally ...

Its about being educated katy1950, not about being trained.

What is it with degrees I just don't get it 3 members of my family have degrees only 1 is actually doing a job that relates in way to the degree her completed.

Just to say, the degrees that a would be policeman would take at Uni now would be a subject such as criminal justice or similar, not any old degree. They wouldn’t be fast tracked either, unless they proved to be brilliant, they would still start as a PC and then later take exams to move up like everybody else.
It’s instead of attending Police College ( as used to be) although I think that was better all round, as were the Nursing Colleges.

Aepgirl

Common sense wins over degrees in many jobs. Why should nurses need degrees, when the most important thing is that they are caring and kind. Nobody goes into nursing to become rich, and I be,Eve that learning on the job beats reading text books.

The same goes for Social Workers - from my experience most of them have no life experience and just go by what the instructions say.

Last time I had to go into hospital I was glad some of the nurses were kind, but I was mostly glad that some of them knew how to prescribe and how to work the equipment I needed.

I wish they would be more informed about what constitutes a civil AND a criminal offence

‘Believe’ not be.Eve’!

Common sense wins over degrees in many jobs. Why should nurses need degrees, when the most important thing is that they are caring and kind. Nobody goes into nursing to become rich, and I be,Eve that learning on the job beats reading text books.

The same goes for Social Workers - from my experience most of them have no life experience and just go by what the instructions say.

When I started in teaching in 1979 there were many teachers still in the system who had no degrees or teaching certificates, including one of my headteachers. They were brilliant as they had undergone a selection process and then relevant training. They needed to have a knowledge base in their subjects and the capacity to teach it.

On the other hand, there was no process for assessing and training for TAs when they first started to come oin the scene and the standard was very variable. Some could take small classes and some stuck to photocopying.

I am sure that with a careful selection procedure and proper training, non graduates with life experience could make very effective police officers.

AGAA4

The problem with degree entrants into the police force is that they can be fast tracked to senior positions without much experience.

I agree. DS2 is a police sergeant who, along with his team, has suffered for months under a 20-something year old graduate "guvnor", fast-tracked to the position in less than a year of entering the service. Working on response is a fast-paced, often dangerous environment. This girl would "freeze" in difficult situations, dither when a fast decision was required, putting pressure on her team and and putting their safety at risk. She's now been promoted up the ladder which beggars belief, but she's a graduate and that's how it works. It takes a certain type of person to become a police officer, they have to really want to do it and be prepared for all the rubbish that comes with it and yet still want to do it. This is why it should be totally open to everyone whether graduate or not. It's not a career to go into solely because you have a degree, it pays reasonably well and you can climb the ladder quickly.

Absolutely well said, Nemosmum, and precisely the point that all ex and established police officers of some considerable standing have been attempting to put over for a huge amount of time. Mr. L, an ex Scotland Yard, Flying Squad career detective of some 30 years started with the then Police Cadets and developed through the years experience, common sense, contacts and the necessary informants to build up that development. Something ‘straight out of university’ graduates do not possess when they jump into the “Job”. Experience has to be learned the hard way. By the way, after retiring he then went on to earn a doctorate at university in a completely different direction and that was the perfect way to confirm your education surely.

Well said NemosMum and Worthingpatchworker! I can't see myself what use a degree is in the Police force. It's much more about the type of person and their practical skills on the frontline.

Whoops! That should have read "plasterers", not "plastered"!

YOU DO NOT NEED A DEGREE TO BE A GOOD COP! I was a police officer (okay, it was 43 years ago when I left to have my daughters) and my first husband was a motorcycle cop (sadly died at 44), but I had a close connection with the force for 22 years, so I think I have a valid opinion. Police officers do not need degree-level education! In the 1970s, my fellow officers were mainly ex-forces, former plumbers and electricians and plastered, with a sprinkling of accountants and bank tellers and police cadets. I was unusual in having trained as a teacher, although one of my inspectors was a Cambridge maths graduate, who became a chief constable. He was the only person I knew who had a degree on entry to the Police Service, although some officers read for OU degrees whilst in service. After I left to have my children, I went to a Russel Group university to read for a B.Sc. and was in a graduate clinical profession thereafter. What police officers need is the right personality, usually described as 'stable extravert', common sense, life experience and the right training. I don't want to see the Police Service ruined as I believe the nursing profession was by declaring it an 'all-graduate profession'. I worked closely with nursing and Health Visitor colleagues throughout my second career as an NHS clinician, and I have yet to come across the older nurse that thought this was a good idea, other than to boost their claim for higher pay. The effect of this was that Health Care Assistants, paid very much less, and with very little training, ended up doing the actual nursing tasks. It will be the same with the police - Police Community Support Officers will end up doing what should be police tasks, but without the appropriate training. Police forces are having enough trouble recruiting as it is, without imposing this silly requirement!

I agree with AGAA4 that the mmain problem with graduate recruits is that they are fast tracked to senior positions without any real sense of what a policeman has to put up with day in and day out. They make decisions for experienced men with very insufficient background to justify them.

I served as a police officer for 30 years. I joined with 59 others just before theSex Discrimination Act 1975 came into being. I’d done a brief stint in the WRAF. However, I was still, effectively, a teenager. The police became my family. I learnt a great deal. A reasonable proportion of my colleagues were former military. Naturally they came with confidence and skills not necessarily attainable in civvy street. Others came from all manner of office, shop and factory roles. A cross section of society. Yes, there were also some who came with degrees but it was rarer in those days as degrees were rarer then.
In my 30’s I looked around and found a number of my colleagues were studying with the Open University. I signed up and, eventually, graduated.
Did it make me a better police officer? Not for me to judge. What I will say is, I formed the opinion police forces like to have educated officers.
Our military have been decimated over the years. We have less of a navy, airforce and army. Military sites have been closed and houses have been built. Less of them and therefore fewer of them and they are stretched between the fire service and police....and maybe the ambulance/paramedics.
So......degrees aren’t, at the outset, the answer. Good education, life experience, good health, fitness, diplomacy, discipline, good work ethic.......and......more officers better trained.
Thank you for reading this.

I think a carefully honed entrance exam, including practical assessment, would give a much better indication of their suitability for the job than a degree. All sorts of things can be tested, for example:
Can they assess a situation?
Can they record details accurately?
Can they make decisions?
Do they have any natural people skills?

That's great. I think the same should apply to nursing too - I was nursing when the SEN role was removed and a whole load of compassion went out of the profession. As other have said, the skill set and the mind set are important, not the bits of paper.

Very sorry I should have said police officer who allegedly killed Sarah. Oooops!

Mmm sounds like real common sense.
However they need just as much background history as any other employee-wasn’t the policeman who killed Sarah Evered(?)a former soldier?

What we need are police who are organised, accurate, disciplined and able to cope with the stresses of the job. I've been involved in 2 criminal investigations (not against me, I hasten to add) and the mistakes the police have made are really unforgivable when a conviction relies on it. The inaccuracies in their reporting are just sloppy. I don't care if they are graduates or not as long as they can do the job.
Making a degree an entry requirement might be helpful if it is criminology or a similar degree but not a degree for a degree's sake. It just seems to me that jobs which used to be open to A level students are now only open to graduates like, say, the Civil Service Executive Officers. This is counter productive where you have a person with all the skills needed but who couldn't afford to take 3 years out to languish at University getting bladdered. 11 hours contact time a week for half the year doesn't make you any more likely to be better placed as a police officer...although you might be used to rowdy drunks!

LauraNorder

I do think that we agree Monica. I think I have just expressed myself badly.

No, you didn't, LauraNorder

I understand what you mean and fast track programmes have been operating for some years, not necessarily all are graduates but others recruits may be older and have other experience.

However, that does not mean that all police recruits should have to be graduates.

I do think that we agree Monica. I think I have just expressed myself badly.

I am sorry LauraNorder I do not think that graduates should have any special privileges when they enter non-degree employments of any kind. There will be many other entrants who will have experience and skill sets different from theirs but just as good within the context of the profession involved.

Having a degree does not mean you are automatically endowed with wisdom or commonsense and other professions will require aptitudes that are not included in their degree studies. If a graduate enters a non-degree profession they must start at the same level as others and earn their promotion on the same basis as others.

The question of the point of their degree is something for them to work out for themselves and if more young people asked that question before going to university, it might be a good idea, but that is a subject for another thread.

Monica there is no automatic assumption on my part that degree entrants will be pushy. I did not say any such thing.
I do feel that those who have studied and worked hard to gain their degree should expect to be fast tracked to more senior roles, otherwise what is the point of working for a degree.
My point was that if all recruits have a degree all will have a right to expect to be fast tracked. Resulting in chaos.
I would like to see police officers recruited from many walks of life, graduates, military personal, school leavers with aptitude and ambition.
I just meant that all should be recruited at the same level and promoted on merit.
Police officers need many skills, a degree will prove that they have the intelligence but empathy, honesty, self discipline and basic decency are attributes not necessarily proven on paper.

Sorry, part of second para disappeared. It should read

'.....there are also many people without degrees who have the same level of intelligence as many graduates and new entrants coming from other professions may well bring in skill sets that graduates lack.'