New proposals for voter identification.

We are moving, hopefully if the solicitor gets her act together, and had to show two forms of I.D. to the agent we are buying from and to the solicitor.

If we needed a mortgage no doubt they would have wanted I.D. as well.

In both cases they took photocopies of a rates bill and our passports. Presumably to check we weren’t laundering money or had an untaxed stash.

kircubbin2000

N I has had voter ID for several years and as far as I know none of us have lost any civil liberties because of it.

As there was good evidence of serious voter fraud in NI the ID was necessary.

There is *no good evidence*for the rest of the UK. Why accept a limitation of your freedom and the exclusion of citizens from exercising their democratic right to vote when there is no good reason for it?

This is nothing to do with 'civil liberties'. This is about imposition of voter ID having the effect of disenfranchising a significant number of voters. Taking away their right to vote as a citizen of the UK.

Now. You either believe that the democratic principle that every eligible citizen over a certain age has the right to vote or you agree that that right can be denied them (*on no evidence whatsoever that voter fraud is a problem* ) because their circumstances, of whatever nature, make it difficult for them to obtain the required ID.

It makes no odds whether or not you think that their reason for not having ID is valid or invalid. Or whether or not you wouldn't mind having to show ID to vote. A key principle, a constitutional principle, FGS, of our democracy is being attacked/eroded for no good reason

I don’t see it as a limitation of my freedom, if I am going to the poling station then taking some photo ID is easy.
As for disenfranchising a significant number of voters....if ID cards would be available from the local council and are free, (and would be useful for them for other things too) then no problem.For those voters who can’t be bothered to get a card, they are unlikely to bother to go out and vote anyway.

Polling not poling ( though that could be fun too.)?

That’s how I see it Lemongrove

For heaven's sake, for the last time, we are not talking about the pros and cons of identity cards, we are talking about voter id, and it is safe to assume, in my opinion, that seeing as everything else is being kicked into the long grass citing covid19 as a excuse reason, that there has to be some gain for the current government in pushing for unnecessary legislation, and just as important, even more unnecessary costs for beleagured local authorities. So, which of you is happy to leave your potholes unfilled/after school clubs closed/pensioners' lunch clubs cancelled, to pay for this nonsense? Just a quick reminder; Police records show 4 allegations were progressed beyond complaint stage. Based on these figures, we are talking about £5,000,000 per police actioned allegation. Does that sound like good value to you, even if you are able to shrug off the undemocratic points?

For those voters who can’t be bothered to get a card, they are unlikely to bother to go out and vote anyway.. Absolutely right, lemongrove, and they won't be Tory voters either will they? Now do you see?

We know it’s voter ID, no need for for heavens sake ?

As for your post of 14.53, I think you have scored an own goal if people cannot be bothered to vote, then they won’t under any circumstances.

GG13, you have completely missed my point, presumably deliberately. Oh, and if you have a fit of the vapours over my use of 'for heaven's sake', you really need to get a grip.

GillT57

GG13, you have completely missed my point, presumably deliberately. Oh, and if you have a fit of the vapours over my use of 'for heaven's sake', you really need to get a grip.

No vapours here, sorry.

Just because people do not agree with you does not mean that they have missed your point.

Nothing at all to do with whether we agree or not, obviously we do not; I am concerned about hundreds and thousands of people losing the vote, you are not. I have tried to explain my concerns, you and others have chosen to dismiss or disbelieve what is said, despite cold hard facts. That is your choice.

GillT57

^For those voters who can’t be bothered to get a card, they are unlikely to bother to go out and vote anyway^.. Absolutely right, lemongrove, and they won't be Tory voters either will they? Now do you see?

I have no idea who they might vote for, if they vote at all.
Many people don’t bother to vote, with or without requiring any photo ID.
Those who are getting so worked up about this just have to accept that others have a different viewpoint.
Hard to accept on social media I know, where people always want to be ‘right’.

GillT57

Nothing at all to do with whether we agree or not, obviously we do not; I am concerned about hundreds and thousands of people losing the vote, you are not. I have tried to explain my concerns, you and others have chosen to dismiss or disbelieve what is said, despite cold hard facts. That is your choice.

Hundreds and thousands of people are not losing their vote. It has been posted several times that for those people who do not have photo ID they are going to be able to apply to their local authority where a photo ID card for voting will be provided free of charge.

If people want to vote they can, nobody is stopping them (see above paragraph) as for knowing which party they will vote for you have absolutely no proof of this, you are just guessing.

No need for comparing pot hole neglect etc., as it has not been announced how they will be funded yet.

i think we can safely assume that anyone whose life is chaotic, who cannot afford to run a car or have a passport, who may be living in short term rented accomodation, is unlikely to be rushing off to their Town Hall to get their voter id card so that they can vote Tory. But, stranger things have happened, red wall seats and all that.

I am very concerned about this imposition of a layer of regulation which is just not needed, but many on here are not, and it is obvious that there is nothing I can say that will convince deniers otherwise . I am now off to put some ice on my extremely painful neck......yes I have and I am a pain in the neck!

Hope your neck improves GillT57

So, I think that we have established that many posters have no principles?

People who can't get an ID card clearly can't be bothered to do it and so they deserve to have their democratic right to vote taken away from them. ?

And to think that there was an outbreak of pearl clutching when I suggested that people who weren't very bright shouldn't be allowed to vote (it wasn't a serious suggestion. BTW). Couldn't possibly take people's votes away from them...how undemocratic...

Interesting how the tune has changed now.

GrannyGravy13

Hope your neck improves GillT57

Thank you.

It is the answer to a problem that does not exist. There is very little evidence of fraudulent voting in the UK, unless you include people who coerce other people to voting a certain way, usually on postal votes - and these measures will do nothing to deal with that very small problem.

It is Johnson trying to prove what a faithful friend of Trump he is. Trump has been claiming that there is massive fraudulent voting in the US despite a complete lack of evidence and as a result many states are bringing in stringent procedures that will result in fewer black, Hispanic or poor white people voting. Johnson quite lieks the idea of that happening here.

Who are the people who wouldn’t be able to get photo ID if, as someone mentioned, it was provided for free by the council? Under those circumstances, for what reason would they be unable to get it?
Councils already issue photo bus passes for free. It would just be another job.

Do we know whether they are the people who would not vote if you had to have voter ID?
Has someone produced evidence that the people who couldn’t get photo ID are all ardent voters -possibly even the ardent voters who voted for Brexit.
Does that mean, if we’d had voter ID and that group hadn’t been able to vote, Brexit wouldn’t have happened?

Travellers.

People whose first language isn't English.

People who aren't sure they trust the government enough to ask them for an ID card.

People who are somehow disadvantaged and don't understand the necessity of getting a card or the rules about how to go about it.

Recent arrivals in this country who are entitled to vote but don't understand the system.

There's 5 groups, off the top of my head, without googling.

Doesn't matter if they are "ardent voters" or not. They certainly won't be ardent voters if we put barriers in their way.

GillT57

^For those voters who can’t be bothered to get a card, they are unlikely to bother to go out and vote anyway^.. Absolutely right, lemongrove, and they won't be Tory voters either will they? Now do you see?

If they can’t be bothered to vote then the chances are they have no political leanings one way or another.

So who are these people who don’t trust the government (and for what reason?) I don’t trust the government but I’d get a card.

The people whose first language is not English-actually better put as ‘don’t speak English’ as some people I deal with don’t have English as a first language-but speak it really well. Do they vote? Why would they not get a card?

People who are somehow disadvantaged and don’t understand the necessity to get a card or the rules about how to go about it. Do they currently vote? Do they understand how to vote. Do they understand the claims of political parties and how their vote impacts on the result. Possibly not, but those who want to vote ask help from families, friends and support.
Recent arrivals. Recent arrivals from where? Rather than say they don’t understand the system, put something in place so that they do. Having/ not having ID won’t make any difference to their understanding. Providing information on what the system requires is surely a better plan.
I’ve only worked with 2 travellers for any length of time and I never discussed voting with them. Why would they not want to get a photo ID?

Alegrias1

Travellers.

People whose first language isn't English.

People who aren't sure they trust the government enough to ask them for an ID card.

People who are somehow disadvantaged and don't understand the necessity of getting a card or the rules about how to go about it.

Recent arrivals in this country who are entitled to vote but don't understand the system.

There's 5 groups, off the top of my head, without googling.

Doesn't matter if they are "ardent voters" or not. They certainly won't be ardent voters if we put barriers in their way.

Travelers: most have driving licenses which contain a photograph, they also have passports in some cases.

Recent arrivals and people whose first language isn't english: if they've just arrived here, they will either have passports (with a photograph) or will have been photographed by immigration as soon as they claimed asylum (this is routine and fingerprints are also taken.) FYI asylum seekers can't vote, if they are granted settled status, they will have photo ID. I had a friend who worked for border force, so I know this is right. They are given help to understand everything they need to know about England.

Lack of understanding: if you can't understand the system, I'm sure you will have support workers who will help you. You only have to speak to your local electoral office, they'll explain.

No trust in the government: these people won't be voting as a matter of course and are usually not on the electoral register.

I didn't get up this morning thinking that I was going to have to defend the privacy rights of every kind of person in the UK who might have concerns

So I'll pick one.

When you say you don't trust the government Mollygo, I assume the trust issue isn't that you think they are going to turn up in the middle of the night and cart you off, never to be seen again? Or that by having an ID card that you have to show at the time of polling, that they will be able to know how you voted and will keep that on file somewhere, for future use? Hard as it may be for some to believe, there are people who have this concern and they also have the right to vote; what earthly reason is there for putting more barriers in their way? There's none, nada, zilch.

I despair that there are people who don't have the imagination to understand that not everyone can just pop along to the council offices and get themselves a nice little Voter ID card. After all, its free. What possible problem could there be?

I'm also a little but concerned about the "if they don't understand about cards, they probably don't understand about voting" comments; are we back to MaizieD's thought experiment again?

By the way Savvy - England isn't the only nation we're talking about.

Alegrias1 all of the UK immigration works the same way, they are given help to understand how to live here.