"gesture politics"

I am more shocked by the comments made by the Home Secretary who herself has been subject to racial abuse !

I think the fact that George Floyd was killed by a knee on his neck was the powerful symbol of 'taking the knee'. It works because it has other totally peaceful references as kneeling in prayer. It is less assertive than the raised fist which black power athletes used. At this moment when racism has raised its very ugly head it definitely should be used. And people will cheer and not boo.

I'm another who didn't know before reading these posts that 'taking the knee' predates George Floyd and Black Lives Matter.
My silly problem - and I know it is silly - is the expression itself. I like words to make sense and this still seems to grate - many people on this thread put it in inverted commas I notice.
It still seems to me to make the gesture self-conscious rather than a spontaneous expression of solidarity.

polnan
It is definitely connected with the colour of a person’s skin. It’s strange that white people are so keen to get a suntan, yet black people want skin whitening! I can understand culture clashes, but its not important what colour a person’s skin is! It’s what’s inside that matters. Black skin is beautiful anyway!

I am vehemently anti racist but I can’t help feeling that taking the knee has become very divisive.
The BLM movement seems to me to be an excuse to use racism to cause trouble and violence on the streets.
I’d like our footballers to express themselves in a different way if possible.

again, I admit I haven`t read all the posts here, actually I find it all so depressing

my view on this idea of racism, is that it isn`t "racism" it is all to do with the colour of a persons skin.

correct me please, anyone, it bothers me!

M0nica

If taking the knee dates back to the image of 1788, then surely it is acquiescing with slavery? It is saying yes you are a slave, in a society that abolished slavery 150 years ago (the US) and this picture shows it and your pleas for freedom will be ignored.

Anyway in that picture the posture of the slave is completely different from the gesture used now. The slave is looking upwards, with arms raised where every picture I have seen taking the knee means also resting your arms on your knees and bowing your head as if in prayer, which takes us back to Martin Luther King.

No it was used as an image by the abolitionists.

Don’t forget you have to get into the 18 th century mind.

Of course the gesture is different, but believe me the gesture is based on those images from past centuries.

But to be honest it matters not.

What matters is the reason it still is needed by so many millions still suffering abuse.

Talking about the messenger is what the detractors want to be done

Listen to the message.

The message is that millions of people are abused, or killed, certainly suffer gross inequality throughout the world because of their skin colour.

They are written out of both western and their own history, wrongly represented in so much art. Their literature is ignored and their religions and cultures have been to a very large extent exterminated or ignored by “good 19 th century Christians”.

The African continent has suffered the most, but whole peoples were exterminated in Australia, Hitler tried hard but didn’t succeed with the Jewish race, but we were much more efficient at genocide - exterminating the Pawala.

Racism is grounded in these times. So when people say “oh that is history, times have changed” they ignore the facts. Times have changed but racism grounded in so much subjugation, death and cultural destruction has not changed. It is still carried with us.

It is time we were educated into the modern world.

I think it's all the more relevant now, after the football racism.

I don’t see it as saying that you are a slave. The text anchors it anyway - Am I not a man and a brother? The viewer is positioned such that the question is being asked to us - are not all men brothers?

When the football team take the knee together, they are showing solidarity both with one another as a multi-racial team, and with the supporters of all colours and creeds.

The current pose is linked to the old one, rather than replicating it, and also references MLK and George Floyd. It is a signifier of racial unity, rather than an impersonation of the original image, and has evolved over time.

If taking the knee dates back to the image of 1788, then surely it is acquiescing with slavery? It is saying yes you are a slave, in a society that abolished slavery 150 years ago (the US) and this picture shows it and your pleas for freedom will be ignored.

Anyway in that picture the posture of the slave is completely different from the gesture used now. The slave is looking upwards, with arms raised where every picture I have seen taking the knee means also resting your arms on your knees and bowing your head as if in prayer, which takes us back to Martin Luther King.

I agree with the action in taking the knee but can't understand why more isn't being done to make a positive change.

I think there are people who totally back the drive to end racism that can find taking the knee uncomfortable.

For some, it is associated with Feudalism. My MIL worked in service and was expected to 'know her place' - the accepted face of class-division that had its roots in Feudalism. There are those that argue that we are in danger of returning to such times in some parts of the world.

www.researchgate.net/post/Is-the-feudal-era-returning-And-what-can-we-do-about-it

Or indeed that it is re-emerging in the name of neo-feudalism:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-feudalism

There are Catholics who object to it as they see it as similar to genuflection, something reserved for humility before God, not man.

I have no wish to prevent anyone protesting however they like, but please let's not assume that anyone who feels uncomfortable with the nature of the gesture does so purely for racist reasons. Nobody owns the gesture, since it has been used during history by different groups to mean different things, but people who have already ascribed one meaning to it will have a visceral reaction to the gesture itself.

Since we all want equality for all, a gesture which suggests servility or religious humility to some might not be universally effective. Of course, it is the right of those who use it to do so, but at the end of the day we all want equality not more division. I've seen several people suggest that teams standing arms linked would give an unmistakable message of unity. I'm not interested in telling others what to do, but we can at least look at why the message might be failing some.

Taking the knee doesn't mean someone no longer treats people well.
Of course how you treat people is the most important thing, but there are variations possible.

Yes, I agree, they can take the knee until the day they stop playing football if they want to ( and if the manager and owners agree it).... but I doubt they will do that.
In any case, it’s my opinion that it will soon have a natural end, not a command from me to the team.

lemongrove

Eloethan yes, clapping for the NHS was a gesture of course, although it seemed to be very appreciated at the time by NHS, and taking the knee is also a gesture which I think was a good idea by the England team ( presumably the Welsh and Scottish teams did the same?) as they were playing so many different countries where the fans are very racist to black players. There comes a time when clapping for the NHS and taking the knee ( as gestures, which is what they are) should naturally come to an end.The point has been made, over and over again.
I also think the NHS frontline workers ( not those in offices) should have had a much better percentage payrise and that the campaign to ‘kick out racism’ should take over as a concrete practical action.

And the point has been made over and over again that it is not for us to make that decision. If the young men want to take the knee until they are old they are absolutely entitled to do so.

The abuse they suffer is happening in the U.K.

The campaign “kick out racism” supports and entirely approves the young men’s action. They suffer the abuse, they are entitled to decide what action to take and when to end it.

I think that the original showed a slave master as well, but I may be thinking of something else.
I think you might be (thinking of something else). That’s the only one I’ve seen, although I’ve seen the image in numerous forms (eg on medallions, in statuette form and so on) over the years.

Yes I agree Allsorts. Action and how you treat people is far more effective than gestures.

Eloethan yes, clapping for the NHS was a gesture of course, although it seemed to be very appreciated at the time by NHS, and taking the knee is also a gesture which I think was a good idea by the England team ( presumably the Welsh and Scottish teams did the same?) as they were playing so many different countries where the fans are very racist to black players. There comes a time when clapping for the NHS and taking the knee ( as gestures, which is what they are) should naturally come to an end.The point has been made, over and over again.
I also think the NHS frontline workers ( not those in offices) should have had a much better percentage payrise and that the campaign to ‘kick out racism’ should take over as a concrete practical action.

Just so, and by the same token those who choose to take the knee should be free to do so.
Because neither option actually affects anyone else.

Its up to the individual, no one should be made to feel guilty if they don’t take the knee. I don’t like demonstrations, only peaceful ones, it’s how you treat people and live your life that counts.

MissAdventure

It doesn't matter if he was akin to Jack the Ripper, though.
He was murdered by police.

My thoughts too (Jack the Ripper a bit extreme). It's not glorifying George Floyd, it's deploring his murder which was deplorable.

Thanks. I only remembered it from my studies. I expect it is in one of my books somewhere. I think that the original showed a slave master as well, but I may be thinking of something else.

There is also a statue of a kneeling slave in supplication to Lincoln. Can’t remember where that is. Probably on google somewhere.

Yesterday I visited a NT property which had a statue of a female slave in shackles - it was very objectified (the woman has very pert bosoms and a tiny waist with a loin cloth tied provocatively ) and as the NT stated makes one feel very uncomfortable. It was placed opposite a white female naked classic statue and the difference is stark.

It’s online, Whitewavemark2. I googled ‘Am I not a man and a brother’ to find the image.

Whitewavemark2

It goes back even further than that.

But the focus should not be on the action.

The focus should be on the reason for the action.

So well put. The racism in football has been there for so long - and so many initiatives which have failed.
Anyone found guilty of any sort of racist tweet, comment, etc should be banned for life from all future football matches.
Think the young England team have been an inspiration, in many ways, and wonderful role models for our young people.So good to see so many people 'taking the knee' in Manchester in support of Marcus Rashford.

People find all protest uncomfortable and generally find things to disagree with in terms of method of protest. Its happened to nearly every group including gay rights, womens suffrage etc etc.