Ken Loach may be kicked out of Labour

Exactly.

Kali2 and if there was some sort of a debate going on between the two sections. to acheive a balanced alternative between whatever Starmer &co support and the policies which emerged under Corbyn I could see a party emerging which might defeat the Tories. As it is all I can see is a left leaning group who are not LP members because they've been thrown out, an LP which has moved more to the right than Tony Blair, and some people in the middle who have abandoned Labour because they found the undemocratic witch hunt unacceptable. There certainly won't be a party than can win elections.

Neither do I but with the split in the Labour Party again !

trisher

There is a slight difference between putting MPs on the front bench who support you and removing whole swathes of ordinary LP members witout any process, examination or questioning

Oh yes, I can see that 100%.

But then we go back to the realities of First Past the Post- and then ...

Maybe Keir is far more cut throat than he comes across as. And, with the current government that can only be a good thing. We’ve got to get them out and all this infighting isn’t going to enable that. I really don’t want to spend the remainder of my life under a Conservative government.

And Tom Watson left .

I didn’t form my opinion of Corbyn from the newspapers but by his own words and actions.

There is a slight difference between putting MPs on the front bench who support you and removing whole swathes of ordinary LP members witout any process, examination or questioning

Didn’t Corbyn remove people that opposed him. The shadow front bench seemed to be full of his supporters with the exemption of Tom Watson and Keir. Isn’t it what politicians tend to do?

Kali2 I don't think the left wing groups are undermining the party. They simply want to ensure that something remains of what was a very attractive manifesto in 2017. The problem is that Starmer rather than opening a dialogue with them and uniting the party as he promised is choosing to use Executive powers to remove them. I don't see how you can have a democratic party if when people disagree with you you simply remove them.

I have been quietly watching from the sides, as I have such mixed feelings about it all- and don't know what the answer is, at all. Actually I don't think anyone would say 'I know exactly what the LP should do now, and win'.

The world has changed- and peoples aspirations too. No longer do we have large groups of workers with a strong sense of community and common hardship and dreams - like the miners, workers for large manual corporations, ship workers, etc. Many are now house owners too, have a car, etc.

The massive problem is this antiquated First Past the Post System- so undemocratic as it leaves huge numbers without a vote that counts, because they happen to live in the 'wrong' area, eg not representative of their opinions and aspirations.

But it also leaves a LP which is made up of members and supporters from the 'sublime to the ridiculous' and everything in between. In other countries with some form of proportional system, this is not the case. Communists and socialist parties are separated, and there are also left wing parties which are much closer to centre. The LP just cannot function with such 'extremes', that have totally different aims and policies.

And it takes you right back to the realities of the FPTP system. A divided LP has NO chance to win. And a LP which has very LW goals and policies, nowadays, when the groups above have been dismantled and have very different hopes and dreams, just un-electable. We have seen it with Corbyn, and we will see it again if Momentum takes over. This is the reality, whether you believe Momentum and the 'extreme' left is the way to go or not. They will not take the majority of the Party with them, and they will not regain the trust of all those who voted Tory last time, for the first time ever.

I am a huge admirer of Ken Loach- his films have portrayed the extremely difficult lives of many- and I watched his films so many times. I also thought Corbyn was a great campaingner, and that he was deliberately tarred and his image destroyed in a disgusting way by the Tory Press.

So, what is Starmer to do with groups which are undermining the Party and ensuring that LP will not be electable, despite the disgusting and dreadful behaviour and policies of Johnson and his cabale - whose only interest is to stop them and their mates paying taxes?

First Past the Post is the reality, whether we like it or not- and a divided LP, once again, will never win an election.

A choice.

It says something about our society when a film maker and a footballer are more sympathetic towards, and do more for, the poor, than any politician

I was never a huge fan of Starmer but accepted that he was fairly popular, and I hoped he would keep the party on an even keel.

Now I am disgusted about what is happening. Ken Loach is a wonderful film maker. He's not to everyone's taste but I believe he gives a voice to those in our society who have been overlooked and unsupported.

If this report about Loach is true and Labour continues to go down this route, there will be no point voting for it. I am still a member but each day I wonder whether I should cancel my membership.

I feel quite sure that Marcus Rashford and Ken Loach have a great deal in common in the way they see the world.

I feel I was tricked into wasting my time and energy on this sorry mess of a party.
former Labour activist bears all on why he quit

My local ex MP, a darling of the left, spent their time discussing issues so remote to their predominately working class constituency that they lost a labour stronghold.

I can understand that, Galaxy. But my ex local MP, also a darling of the left, seemed to get involved with issues like foodbanks and WASPI women and she still got voted out. ?‍♂️

Callistemon

Theresa May not be PM but the Tories are still in power

Not the point I was making, which was that facile slogans can sway voters on all points of the spectrum.

Build Back Better is another one, as of course is Get Brexit Done (tell that to the Northern Irish).

Whatdayisit

I would say the majority of this country don't care about employment rights for other people any more.

My employer last Summer slipped me onto a zero hours contract and i have been doing the same job since 2008. That was even after their Boris asked employers to be fair in the pandemic.

I don't think it is necessarily true they don't care I suspect many don't know what is happening. But really the LP knows and should care. It's exactly the same situation my grandfather faced with insecure work, no steady income and fear of reprisals if the employee complains.

I would say the majority of this country don't care about employment rights for other people any more.

My employer last Summer slipped me onto a zero hours contract and i have been doing the same job since 2008. That was even after their Boris asked employers to be fair in the pandemic.

But in order not to have poor employment practices you need to get elected that's the issue. I am not talking about people on this thread but large sections of the left have absolutely no connection or understanding of those they purport to represent. My local ex MP, a darling of the left, spent their time discussing issues so remote to their predominately working class constituency that they lost a labour stronghold.

Callistemon

^Look at the 2019 LP manifesto. What was so 'far left', and so totally unacceptable to the electorate, about it?^

That wasn't the manifesto of the far left though, was it.

Unfortunately the shadows of the inadequate leftwing Corbyn and his puppet masters still linger and unless the LP can expunge those memories and convince the electorate, they're doomed.

What is your explanation for their dismal performances over the last 11 years?

It's certainly not the scintillating Boris.

Well, I don't know if it was the manifesto of the far left or not. It was the manifesto that the party ran on. So you're saying that it wasn't a far left manifesto? In which case, what was the 'far leftness' that the voters objected to?

Is it possible that the same manifesto under a different leader would have been acceptable?

I'm trying to find out what the 'far left' is trying to do 'to' the voters that the voters don't like. What do voters want (not mantras about extremism etc) that the 'far left' is denying or imposing on them?

trisher is 'far left', isn't she? She doesn't want poor employment practices. Says so in this thread. Neither do I. Is that too 'far left' for the ordinary voter?

It is so difficult to put a finger on what 'far left' means in real, concrete, practical terms.

I have absolutely no idea why Labour has done badly over the last 11 years. I can only conclude that the electorate are largely masochistic and really enjoyed that lovely austerity that kept the UK in recession and lost people their jobs...

MaizieD

^My mother grew up in the 30s with a father who sometimes worked, because he was a docker, and the system meant he was employed sometimes and not at others. What is dreadful is that the LP now seems to be embracing the very policies he and other Union members fought against . It's abandoning the principles it once had and is supporting a system which is bringing back poverty for many families. It's disgusting.^

trisher, I'm feeling very thick today. Could you spell out what policies the LP is embracing; i.e that are being formally launched and presented to the electorate.

The policies referred to are those of employers to use methods of employment which provide no benefits for the employee like zero hours contracts. Angela Rayner recently refused to say the LP would ban them. And the LP is at present making office workers redundant and replacing them with people on insecure contracts. It doesn't need to be announced it is happening. skwawkbox.org/2021/07/28/video-rayner-refuses-to-say-labour-is-opposed-to-zero-hours-contracts-video/

Theresa May not be PM but the Tories are still in power

Strong and stable?

Look how that worked out.

So, if a party has as its manifesto,

We are not extremist
We are decisive
We are not divisive

they are going to sweep the board because that is what the country wants? No need to bother with policies and ideas for improving citizen's lives?

They haven't yet approached me to compile their manifesto before the next GE.

But if they want slogans the three above are a start. Apparently slogans are very popular and, being realistic, not every voter reads the manifesto. Some vote tribally, some float.

'Things can only get better'

Look at the 2019 LP manifesto. What was so 'far left', and so totally unacceptable to the electorate, about it?

That wasn't the manifesto of the far left though, was it.

Unfortunately the shadows of the inadequate leftwing Corbyn and his puppet masters still linger and unless the LP can expunge those memories and convince the electorate, they're doomed.

What is your explanation for their dismal performances over the last 11 years?

It's certainly not the scintillating Boris.

My mother grew up in the 30s with a father who sometimes worked, because he was a docker, and the system meant he was employed sometimes and not at others. What is dreadful is that the LP now seems to be embracing the very policies he and other Union members fought against . It's abandoning the principles it once had and is supporting a system which is bringing back poverty for many families. It's disgusting.

trisher, I'm feeling very thick today. Could you spell out what policies the LP is embracing; i.e that are being formally launched and presented to the electorate.