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Is it time the rest of the world stopped following America into war?

(29 Posts)
Dinahmo Fri 27-Aug-21 12:00:30

The Americans went to war in Vietnam in order to halt the spread of communism. They went to war in Iraq because of WMD and they went to war in Afghanistan because the Taliban wouldn't hand over Osama bin Laden. None of them particularly good reasons I think.

After Vietnam we thought "Never Again". We thought the same after Iraq. No WMD were found although there are rumours that they were found but nothing mentioned because they were of American origin.

And now, 20 years after the Americans trying to get one man (which they supposedly did in Pakistan) we are witnessing the terrible aftermath.

"According to the Costs of War project at Brown University, the war killed 51,613 Afghan civilians in Afghanistan. However, the death toll is possibly higher due to unaccounted deaths by "disease, loss of access to food, water, infrastructure, and/or other indirect consequences of the war".[101][60] A report titled Body Count put together by Physicians for Social Responsibility, Physicians for Global Survival and International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War (IPPNW) concluded that 106,000–170,000 civilians have been killed as a result of the fighting in Afghanistan at the hands of all parties to the conflict."

It's about time the rest of the world stopped supporting the US in their efforts to change situations that they don't like.

Blossoming Fri 27-Aug-21 13:00:28

I don’t think it’s over by a long chalk, unfortunately. From today’s Independent Inside Politics.

On the other side of the Atlantic Joe Biden promised action against the perpetrators of the attack, which killed at least 60 people including 12 US military personnel. Speaking late UK time on Thursday the president said America would "not be intimidated", adding: “We will not forgive. We will not forget. We will hunt you down and make you pay”. Biden said he had asked his commanders to develop battle plans to strike ISIS-K targets in Afghanistan, and that he would authorise additional force if required.

MaizieD Fri 27-Aug-21 13:02:29

I read somewhere recently (can't remember where because I've read so much) someone claiming that 'America isn't the world's policeman'. Which is odd, because that's what they have been doing all my life; interfering in countries where they don't like the regime, either overtly or covertly. They even invaded little Grenada shock

MaizieD Fri 27-Aug-21 13:04:58

Blossoming

I don’t think it’s over by a long chalk, unfortunately. From today’s Independent Inside Politics.

^On the other side of the Atlantic Joe Biden promised action against the perpetrators of the attack, which killed at least 60 people including 12 US military personnel. Speaking late UK time on Thursday the president said America would "not be intimidated", adding: “We will not forgive. We will not forget. We will hunt you down and make you pay”. Biden said he had asked his commanders to develop battle plans to strike ISIS-K targets in Afghanistan, and that he would authorise additional force if required. ^

Goodness, it just gets worse. They'll be back in Afghanistan soon and all this horror will have been for nothing.

M0nica Fri 27-Aug-21 13:13:19

The Americans have changed, going from interventionist to isolationist. i think the country is in decline, as we know, no empire lasts forever, now it is someone elses turn. China?

The quality of the last and current presidents has sunk to a low, not previously seen and no one of any quality wants the job.

Personally i think Biden is all mouth and no trousers and any attept at any revenge will be partial and incomplete and just demonstrate once more how the Americans have lost the plot.

vegansrock Fri 27-Aug-21 13:39:50

“The rest of the world” doesn’t follow the US, unless you count the U.K. as the “rest of the world”, though Harold Wilson fortunately kept us out of Vietnam. I can’t believe out of 300 million population the best the US could come up with has been Trump and Biden.

GrannyGravy13 Fri 27-Aug-21 13:59:57

[email protected] has posted a video from American Politicians (sorry I tried to do a link but it would not work). the gist of which is that this US Administration has left approx $85 billion worth of equipment in Afghanistan, including armoured vehicles, planes, helicopters, thousands of small arms with ammunition and most worryingly biometric equipment which means that the Taliban now have the details including fingerprints of everyone who helped the Allied Forces.

Why oh flipping why was this equipment either taken back to the US or destroyed?

Following this news I wouldn’t follow POTUS Biden out of a burning building…

Sarnia Fri 27-Aug-21 14:01:23

I don't agree with war. I would prefer all sides concerned to sit down together, listen to one another then find some common ground and be prepared to compromise. When you see the utter devastation caused to men, women and children, their homes, surroundings and infrastructure it makes no sense to me. Too many US Presidents think they are John Wayne.

Zoejory Fri 27-Aug-21 14:05:08

I'm not sure we could sit down with the Taliban and ISIS .

There's no common ground. I doubt there ever would be.

Whatdayisit Fri 27-Aug-21 14:21:10

The first Gulf War started when Iraq invaded Kuwait.
The WMD came about when GW wanted to finish Daddy's war off.

My dad had a CD by NoFX and one of the songs was called
The idiot son of an asshole!
Yet I felt GW spoke sense recently about Afghan.

MayBee70 Fri 27-Aug-21 14:21:27

MaizieD

I read somewhere recently (can't remember where because I've read so much) someone claiming that 'America isn't the world's policeman'. Which is odd, because that's what they have been doing all my life; interfering in countries where they don't like the regime, either overtly or covertly. They even invaded little Grenada shock

Funny you should mention that. For as long as I can remember I’ve had an awareness that whatever is happening around the world America is involved in varying degrees. I’ve long had this phrase in my head ‘death squads in South America’. Not sure where or when I read it but it’s rattled around in my brain for a long time. Which is why I still can’t get my head around American intelligence not knowing that the Taliban were going to take over the country. I’ve also heard over the years that our troops have always been as afraid of ‘friendly fire’ from US troops. Even though I hate war and conflict of any kind I think the British army is the best in the world. I’m not meaning to be anti American by saying this. They are just thoughts I’ve had for a long time and I’m voicing them here because I’m thinking so much about the current situation. And desperately sad for all the people that have been injured or killed, especially the families of the American soldiers who have lost their lives as they thought their boys were now safe and coming home to them. What a terrible mess.

Namsnanny Fri 27-Aug-21 14:47:32

I read the UN asked for countries to 'help' Afghanistan around 2000.
America followed through.
Maybe some of you can confirm or question that?
I'll Google and look for myself later on.

lemongrove Fri 27-Aug-21 14:48:33

Zoejory

I'm not sure we could sit down with the Taliban and ISIS .

There's no common ground. I doubt there ever would be.

Exactly.
Most wars don’t start until all the talking just doesn’t work and never would do.
I think it was the right decision to go after Bin Laden and his group, but after that it would have been better to leave.
I don’t think it’s simply the UK who often ( not always) agree to be involved with American foreign enterprises, and in Afghanistan there were quite a few other countries represented there over the years including France and
Germany.

Namsnanny Fri 27-Aug-21 14:58:34

The Taliban have sat down to talks with China.
They have agreed to leave China to deal with the Urgars without interference.
China wants mining rights among other things.

Zoejory Fri 27-Aug-21 14:59:34

*and in Afghanistan there were quite a few other countries represented there over the years including France and
Germany.*

Indeed, lemongrove

36 countries were involved initially in 2001. 150 thousand troops.

This article explains how many of the European soldiers have been quietly leaving the area earlier on this year

apnews.com/article/europe-afghanistan-health-coronavirus-pandemic-9c1c4f5732c032ba85865aab0338a7a3

Certainly not just the UK

Callistemon Fri 27-Aug-21 15:02:13

They went to war in Iraq because of WMD and they went to war in Afghanistan because the Taliban wouldn't hand over Osama bin Laden. None of them particularly good reasons I think.
Not forgetting the first Gulf War - but that was because Iraq invaded Kuwait and the world needed oil.

Perhaps if we no longer have such a dependence on oil things could change?
Oh, no, we will need lithium for batteries and Afghanistan is rich in lithium apparently.

The Americans have changed, going from interventionist to isolationist. i think the country is in decline, as we know, no empire lasts forever, now it is someone elses turn. China?
Yes M0nica

M0nica Fri 27-Aug-21 15:05:32

The Taliban have sat down to talks with China.
They have agreed to leave China to deal with the Urgars without interference.
China wants mining rights among other things.

How long before Afghanistan goes the way of Tibet?

The Chinese are brutal and effective. How soon before even the Taliban wish they had stuck with the Americans?

Callistemon Fri 27-Aug-21 15:07:39

Is it time the rest of the world stopped following America into war?

30 allied countries belonging to NATO which went into Afghanistan - so do you think NATO should be disbanded Dinahmo?

Callistemon Fri 27-Aug-21 15:10:22

36 countries were involved initially in 2001. 150 thousand troops.
Sorry, 36, not 30 as I posted

MerylStreep Fri 27-Aug-21 15:13:49

Callistemon
They’ve got so much of it, Afghanistan was described as the Saudi Arabia of Lithium.
Years ago the Saudis needed the west’s technology to get it out of the ground.
The Afghans have the Chinese. They’ll have the world over a barrel with this one.

Namsnanny Fri 27-Aug-21 15:16:19

Isnt keeping China out of Afganistan a very good reason to have stayed?
Considering all the natural resources there. All needed for modern technology.
Surely it's better for the population to have (some) control over the commodities it owns?
If China gets its foot in the door, they will get nothing.
But maybe the Taliban will take the money from China and use it against the West?

Callistemon Fri 27-Aug-21 15:16:33

MerylStreep
Totally shortsighted.

MerylStreep Fri 27-Aug-21 15:28:15

Callistemon
And there’s more 😄 China have bought the rights to the 2nd largest copper mine in the world ( in Afghanistan)
You couldn’t make it up, could you.
But I’m sure Jo has a cunning plan, as Baldrick would say 😉

MaizieD Fri 27-Aug-21 15:36:59

Callistemon

^Is it time the rest of the world stopped following America into war?^

30 allied countries belonging to NATO which went into Afghanistan - so do you think NATO should be disbanded Dinahmo?

The US was a leading member of NATO as it was a key economic and military 'world power' after WW2", and opposed to the other leading world power, the USSR . The whole point of a defensive alliance is that if a member is involved in a conflict they are supported by other members.

In view of the current US actions it might be the time to look closely at NATO and think about its utility in a world that has changed quite radically in the past few decades.

tickingbird Fri 27-Aug-21 15:38:42

China also have their eyes on Taiwan and I don’t think Biden will help the Taiwanese. I think the world as we know it is shifting. I’m very uneasy, not so much for myself but for my grandchildren and future generations.